Jane Hardwicke Collings - Rebel With A Cun* Of A Cause

Posted by Angela Gallo on

We’re about to have a conversation that is going to be oozing so much witchy woman warrior goddess queen shi$ that you might melt into a puddle of lava. Please get a change of panties, get your wand, get a journal because we have the phenomenal Jane Hardwicke Collings on the podcast today. Jane is a grandmother, midwife, teacher, writer and menstrual educator. She gives workshops in Australia and internationally on mother and daughter preparation for menstruation, the spiritual practice of menstruation, and the sacred dimensions of pregnancy, birth, and menopause – a modern-day Women’s Mysteries Teacher.

We get down and dirty on so many topics here and the work that Jane has done for women throughout her career is just so impressive. You can easily forget that Jane grew up in a time when resistance to the kind of work she does was rampant because she speaks in a way that makes you feel as if it was easy. She helped to pave the way for us to rise up and come into our power, and start the rebellion that we need to have in order to be empowered. We need to leave the earth better than we found it and create a positive experience around the magic that our bodies have for those that come after.


  • What is The Herstory and why is it so important
  • Why we need to learn about birth before we have a baby
  • Abolishing menstrual shaming
  • The detrimental affects of birth control on your body
  • Knowing your cycle completely and understanding your bleed
  • How your life changes throughout the different “seasons”
  • Menopause is a GAME CHANGER
  • Speaking with your children about menarche
  • Creating a lasting legacy of change for future generations


Website: www.janehardwickecollings.com

Learn With Jane: www.schoolofshamanicwomancraft.com

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/JaneHardwickeCollings

Bookstore: https://www.appletreehouse.com.au/

Events: https://janehardwickecollings.com/#/events


Angel: Hello, everybody. Okay, let me just say that you are tuning in to yes, another episode of Slaying The Status Quo In Total Fucking Style, but actually, what you're tuning into is a conversation that is going to be oozing so much witchy woman warrior goddess queen shit, you might melt into a puddle of lava and cum. So please, get a change of panties, get your wand, get a journal, because we have the phenomenal Jane Hardwicke Collings today. She is the most inspiring, wise broad that I've ever come across in this industry. She was a home-birth midwife for a very long time, so about 30 years, and then she took all of that and turned it into the Shamanic School of Womancraft previously of Midwifery.

She has just literally made a body of work on being a bad bitch and I wanted to invite her here today because if we were to look at, again, the ways and the reason that I created this, is people and women who are defined the odds by challenging every fucking or humanly possible and Jane has done exactly that.

Now, before I let her introduce herself, I need everybody to know that you have no idea what your work has done for me personally and how it has set the tone for my activism and my advocacy and my fierce obsession with all the things helping women rebirth themselves, helping them reclaim their personal power, and this is just a very special episode to me. I have looked up to you for a long time. I'm constantly inspired by a special brand of magic and with total joy, I welcome you here today. Hello, Jane.

Jane Hardwicke Collings: Hello, Angel. Thank you so much. That was quite an introduction. Tell me though, what would have been the most significant pieces of my offerings that have affected the way you offer yours?

Angel: The Herstory. The first time I read that, I nearly fainted and I had a real coming to Jesus moment for a lack of better words when I started. Most likely over a year ago, when I really started deep-diving into the literal history of women, i.e the erasure of women in time.

First of all, for everybody who does not know, there's virtually no information, no history available, and to find the history of women, you literally have to dig and dive into all the things and this is an orchestrated thing. We'll get to that in a second. Then when I came across Herstory, I was flabbergasted A, at how small it was because that's just totally apt for what's left to discuss. But the way I felt when I read it, I had this visceral full-body sickness and grief come over me, like every repressed memory from every time I was killed, washed over me. It was like a baptism, I swear to fucking God and I just cried, and cried, and cried.

So now what I do is in all of my trainings, I read the Herstory, and as you know, I included it in the training so that everybody understands this. Then as I move into The 'Masks' We Wear and all of the work that I'm doing in rebirthing women, that for me was the first place that I fell in love with you, and I'd already known about you through circles, right. I've only been doing these five years and I knew about you because of your profound work in terms of birth activism advocacy in general.

Then it's interesting 'cause I've recently realized that I knew how powerful you were from afar energetically and I had suppressed my witchiness very young and I've spoken about in previous episodes, because of how intense it was for a young girl to experience that, and I've only come back into it this year in January and it's been unreal, like unbelievable that the Shamanic stuff, the soul growth, the spiritual aspect of everything that I am now coming into full blossom is, I wouldn't have been able to have this conversation that we're going to have with each other today last year, because I knew that being around you would call me to remember and be aware of everything that I am and the potential of my magic.

It's like a real full-circle moment for me right now. It's like, wow, I was meant to find you exactly when I was meant to find you, when I was meant to read you, when I was meant to take you in, when I was meant to have myself awakened to the reality of what it means to be a woman in this world. Then from there, it was like everything that you did with the cycles and then you had sent me this beautiful kind of like your- It's like the interactive charts, so the- [crosstalk]

Jane: Spinning wheels.

Angel: It's spinning wheels, that's it. From there, I was getting my daughter involved in your work, and then my doulas involved with your work, and yes, that's kind of how the cookie started crumbling, my love.

Jane: Thank you for reading all of that. The Herstory is often the first thing or the first way that women find their way to their awakening, shall we say, and that is such a necessary thing to have happen. We are under the spell of the patriarchy and not just women, men too. Everybody's under the spell of the patriarchy and I think we see it at its worst in the way that women are treated and also the way the earth is treated. But it's not just about women too because the only cultures that have survived the Herstory, the effect of the patriarchy, are the cultures that have sacrificed their men.

So whether that be to war or sacrifice their lives to workings as opposed to being able to pursue their dreams. So it's not about women against men or men against women, this is a co-creation and I think that that's one of the most important things we need to know.

Angel: Oh, God, yes. It's interesting 'cause this comes up in every single conversation and I almost find myself having to diplomatically defuse this. Because I understand that the initial reaction might sound like this might be an anti-men conversation or it's meant to, for example, intentionally not includes certain disenfranchised people or marginalized communities or men or people identifying as or non-identifying as, and it's not.

For me, that's exactly what I felt when I read that, was the spell of the patriarchy and realizing that how long-standing and how that affected everybody and really how that put community and society and human beings in a type of shackle that we have been literally cuckolded to for thousands of years now.

I'm totally not surprised that that is the first thing that draws people towards their awakening. I could start crying right now because if I could show you the reactions of people when I read this stuff in the training and they have never heard this, because I cry every single time and they just are fuckin floored to the point where this element of denial bubbles to the surface and they want to safely just say this must be a conspiracy and this must be-- You see this kind of dismantle in front of me and then this facade falls to the floor and this realization of what they've taken part in, consciously or subconsciously. Then as we move into epigenetics and mother wounds and all this kind of stuff, it's like, I really want you to know that you have no idea.

Perhaps you understand, [chuckles] I'd like to hope you know how practical your work is, but I really need you to understand the lives that you impact and the message that you are really like, why you're alive right now and the seeds that you plant, and it's just remarkable. I guess what I'd like to start off by saying is that I say to each one of my guests is, 'Who the fuck are you and why should anybody be paying attention to Jane Hardwicke Collings, what do you do? Who are you, woman?

Jane: [laughs] I am a rebel with a cause and I grew up in a typical patriarchal family. I'm 61 this year, so I was born in the '50s and grew up in the '60s. I grew up as a midwife, basically. I was a registered nurse, did my nursing training in Sydney in Australia from 19 to 21 years old and then I worked in a few different intense places in hospitals like operating theatres and children's intensive care units. So I was really deep in the system as a servant, or maybe I should say slave, and so pursued a midwifery career after, well, the training after a few years because I wanted to have a baby of my own and I wanted to learn all about midwifery. Actually, what happened then was this rebel got her cause.

I was so, outraged sounds like a minor term to use, but disgusted and so upset by the way that women and babies were being treated during their experiences of birth in the institutions set up to process them, I couldn't continue to be part of it. So I left the institutionalized birth environment and became a refugee from that, and grew up in the home birth world where I was a home birth midwife for 30 years. I learned so much from the families that I had the honor and privilege to be a midwife for, so much. I learned what normal means. I learned what undisturbed birth means and the capacity and the importance of that.

I also learned that by the time women get to having a baby or by the time women arrive at the birth altar, which is priestess talk for the altar of transformation of the rite of passage of birth. By the time women get to having a baby, it's almost too late, almost too late to change the trajectory that their experience of life so far is leading them to in the transformational experience of the rite of passage of giving birth. So that's really what formed my awareness that women need to be doing their inner work basically, a long time before they get pregnant in order to impact the potential trajectory that they're on for giving birth.

Because how we give birth is as if a culmination of our life thus far. It's like a readout of our mindset, which is our attitudes, thoughts, and fears, and it's also affected by our experience of our menarche, our first period, and how we did or didn't look after ourselves through our years of menstruation prior to having a baby, and also our red thread or our mother line. You mentioned it before during talking about the Herstory and link-ups that we have to forever ago, same with birth. Each one of us is simply the current version of whatever the story is that our red thread or our mother line is carrying.

It may not be exactly the same as what our mothers or grandmothers went through, but it will be the next current version of it, and it's in our rites of passage so how we are born, our menarche, or first period, giving of birth and our menopause and presumably our death. I haven't been able to report back from that altar of transformation yet, but I presume it's the same, that it's in these rites of passage that the wounds show up and they show up in order to be healed, to be met and worked with and healed, yet it's such a big idea when you're meeting all of this for the first time just before giving a baby that, as I said, I realized we have to start a lot, lot, lot earlier in preparing women for birth, like from birth.

So what I have focused my work on is all the places within the life cycle that we can do positive intervention to affect birth, because I am a strong believer and I'm not the only one, that the more gentle a baby's birth is, the less complicated their life is. That doesn't mean it has to be an orgasmic ocean birth with dolphins, that would be epic. However, it could be also an elective cesarean, or an emergency cesarean or whatever level of intervention is required, if it's necessary, because that's the other big piece. We welcome intervention if it's necessary, but most of it is unnecessary and that's actually what preparation for birth has to be about for mothers and fathers is to be prepared for the way--

Intervention is just handed out to everybody, but because of policies and procedures rather than the individual's experience. So all these places in our life cycle that can have positive inputs in them so that babies can be born gently. So, obviously the own person's birth, but the menarche, so the first period, the beginning of the menstrual cycle is such a powerful place in an individual's life.

Angel: Huge. My God, there are literally a thousand things that you just said that I could have spun off into a hundred different tangents of their own. I feel like I'm watching you as this Rubik's cube but I'm seeing all these colors and I just need to play and put it- because it's too many good things. Quite literally, we look at the way it's 2019, how does society work, right? We look at the ways that we believe, the ways that we die, the ways that we have sex, the ways that we are intimate the ways that we laugh, and love, and whatever it is around the spectrum of the human experience, and you can see how sterilized it is from start to finish, right?

We've literally created these boxes, this conveyor belt, this system, in every single place where there should be the altar, the rite of passage, the catalyst moment, the opportunity to learn and because of that, obviously, all of these opportunities that nature has so perfectly provided for us to grow and learn and become the next thing and level up to the echelon of everything we ought to be, has been robbed from us, right. We've been deprived of these opportunities.

Jane: The big piece here is that we've been deprived of the ideas of celebrating and honoring them, but they still happen. So the bottom line here is that, even if you don't have a rite of passage around your menarche, say, your first period, whatever happens, is the rite of passage.

Angel: Yes. For everyone listening, it's not that I'm referring to the concept, or actually, the conceptualized idea of the rite of passage, it's that it's going to happen no matter what. So inside your body that is happening. So that is moving through your circuitry, this is something that is rewriting you, whether you like it or not, and much like as a doula is, when I speak to people about birth, it's like, "Hey, this is going to either make you or break you, and what you make of it, that's your decision. But you can't sit here and pretend that you're going to avoid this rite of passage because it is a rite of passage.

So you can be stubborn about it, you can subscribe to all these sterile ideas, but at the end of the day, you are being called to be the next version of you, and how you approach this and how you enjoy this and how you take full advantage of it is absolutely your prerogative." Now, because of the precariousness of the ways we carry our history and our trauma and our and our grief and yes, it convolutes the situation, but the opportunity to better yourself is just remarkable, and I just want to rewind really quickly to the ways in which we operate as a society, so our status quo, right.

If you are a person who bleeds, if you are a person who gestates, who births, does any of those things, you are moving in a linear hyper-masculine system right now. That's just how it works and that is the status quo. The status quo is this is the box, we operate within this box, the parameters, the protocols, the policies, this is our culture. This is the way we look at things depending on where you are in the world, your background, and the work that you do so profoundly challenges every single one of those things.

So whether that is the conveyor belt of toxic culture around the menarche, or it's the ways we're challenging the culture of birth in the mainstream world, or it's the way that we're bringing, the word witch back to a time in history where we're trying to reclaim our ability to heal and connect, and the ways that you're challenging each of these things is obviously bringing the connectedness, excuse me, to replace them in a world that is sick with disconnection. But it's really showing people that the only way to take full advantage of life and the only way to taste the rainbow of the human experience is to actually defy all of those norms.

It's to challenge every single thing that you are given and stop settling for less and believing that there's more to experience within your body, and that you're not just a meat bag who just has to do the things and bleed and piss on the stick and birth under these conditions and parents under these conditions. There is a requirement for us to command more space and demand better of this and believe that there is an etherealness to this life that we call life. Because it is in there, it is in challenging the system that we find our best selves, that we find our best lives, that we're able to pass that knowledge on to our children, our great-great-great-grandchildren.

So when you said that you, the rebel with the cause, like when you went from the rebel without a cause to the rebel with a cause, I thought that was so beautiful and I really want to ask you, when did you figure out that the work that you were going to do was going to be anchored in the ruffling of feathers? In the starting the conversation that perhaps seemed completely weird and completely fucked up. When did you know that the work you were going to create, your conviction, your courage was going to be solidly placed in an environment in a sphere where you had to consistently challenge those norms?

Jane: Well, I guess in my heart of hearts, so to speak, I knew that that was what was happening with every home birth that I was the midwife of. How you birth is a political act.

Angel: Ah, excuse me. Let's just get that tattooed on our heads. Thank you. How you birth is a political act.

Jane: As a home birth mother and midwife, I knew from then that much change was happening just with doing nothing, basically, as opposed to making a situation where it was dependent on me doing so many things to seem important, which is what happens so often in other situations. But I guess also when I started to teach the Moonsong workshop that had it's origins about 27 years ago, where I was basically teaching the wisdom of the cycles and pulling together all the different cycles that are going on in our worlds that help make sense of each other and everything that's going on. So within that too, is the spiritual practice of menstruation.

Then once we start going into all of that information, the Herstory that we've been talking about was a big part of that work as well. Like you shared that the dawning and the horrible and sad realizing of what has actually happened to women over the last thousands of years. When people hear that or read that, I know that that's making a big change. In fact, I remember the first time I actually read it out loud. I read it to my husband, Paul and a young friend of ours, Danny who was staying. I said, "Okay, this is going to take 45 minutes for me to read, and I really want you to listen to this, please." I read it, just all in one go. No conversations or anything during it.

When I stopped and I looked at them, they were both, so Danny would have been in his mid-20s, I guess, and Paul in his 40s. They both were just had these terrible looks on their faces and said things like, "I feel like I need to say sorry," which obviously is not what they needed to say, but I think we all need to say sorry. But the point is that I realized the power of us all remembering that information that's held within Herstory, and that's just the European story. Like every continent and every culture has a similar story. But what I started doing with the Herstory pretty much straight away then, 2004 was the first time I created it. The first printing and this was on Valentine's Day in 2004.

Angel: My birthday is on the 15th of February. That was a really huge year for me, that's really cool.

Jane: What I started to do was friends would contribute funds and I had them printed and I would put them all over the place like propaganda. I put them in cafes, in universities at schools.

Angel: You're so punk rock, that's good.

Jane: [laughs] Many women found them and like I had an email address in the back and lots of people contacted me and it was the beginning of a big change. But the other places that I saw my work having a great effect were in the workshops I was offering to pregnant mothers, to women having babies. I used to run a three-day workshop called the Inner Journey of Pregnancy. I've changed that now to one day, and it's called, Connecting with the Shamanic Dimensions of Pregnancy. Basically, what that work does is help women to see all of the things that have already happened in their lives, or in their families' lives as the setups that are going to influence how they give birth.

So contrary to what we might be led to believe that birth is some random, dangerous medical event that needs to be monitored and supervised by experts, contrary to that, birth is actually something that we can potentially see what the setups are in terms of the soul crafting or the opportunities for personal evolution are approaching. Because when we look at our rites of passage and we line them up on top of each other. Say our birth, our menarche, our experiences of birthing. That can be other than human babies too, 'cause as creatrix we conceive, gestate and birth all manner of things besides human babies. Like projects, or careers, or gardens or books or new versions of ourselves.

So that workshop of Connecting with the Shamanic Dimensions of Pregnancy, really helps women see the patterns and themes in their lives, which are mostly connectable to by understanding their menarche. Like at a rite of passage, whatever happens or doesn't happen, is said or not said, teaches us on a subliminal level, which means we don't even realize we're being taught, how our culture values the next role we're going into, so at birth it's mother, and therefore how to behave to be accepted by that culture. It's brainwashing. So that happens at all of our rites of passage.

So themes and patterns develop, which can help us to notice what story we're living, which also holds within it some great magic about our sole purpose and offerings as the wounded healer. It's a freeing concept to understand that we are going to have the birth we need to have to teach us whatever we need to learn, to take us to the next place. That's just the way it happens.

Angel: Did Jesus hitch Christ on a bicycle? So powerful. Obviously, during the inception and creation of all of this, you would have met some resistance. Because we're talking about massive, massive insights here. This is like paradigm-shifting, womb quaking type of shit and so the systems, and the professionals, and the people around you, that you would have absolutely been coming across, there had to have been some level of resistance as you moved into a rebel with a cause. Now, on your end, this is a quite organic, I guess, evolution of who you are as a person, but on the outside people have been like, "Hey, listen up lady you're causing a little bit too much shit."

Like what happened there? How did you mitigate all of that? Did the resistance derail you whatsoever? Did it fuel you? Was it affirming? Were you're like, "Yes, this means people are hearing my message." What did it look like for you?

Jane: I guess really the only really big thing that ever has happened so far with what you're talking about, has been an encounter with the government, basically, around the name of the school that I founded. Back in 2008, I founded the School of Shamanic Midwifery, which at its heart was me carrying on the lineage of my dear mentor and teacher Janine Parvati Baker. She died in 2005, and at her deathbed, which I had the honor to sit with her for about a week over in the US when she was dying, I promised to continue her work and Shamanic Midwifery was definitely what her work was about.

Because that's part of what I really believe is going to be helpful in dismantling the current culture and shifting the paradigm. What she used to call it is that we live in the cult of the expert, and the cult of the expert, is also the culture of blame. What we need to do is to shift from the cult of the expert into the culture of self-responsibility.

Angel: You're speaking my language.

Jane: She was such an amazing leader and icon back in those days, so to carry on her work is nothing short of my responsibility as well. Part of dismantling the culture of the expert is to re-empower lineages. Lineages, the paradigm shift from cult to the expert. I carry three lineages, and in my school, I share those lineages and then the women carry those lineages on and add whatever other lineages that they have. Carrying a lineage means permission. So it's not about whether you're doing anything that you shouldn't be. If you're carrying a lineage, that entitles you to the permissions to be carrying the lineage so it's pretty simple in that way.

Angel: The government basically said, "Hey, listen, you're not allowed to use that name."

Jane: That's correct.

Angel: How did that feel? How did you move through that?

Jane: Well, it was a very interesting experience to tell you the truth. The timing of it and otherworldly magic that was going on as well was huge. It happened toward the end of a calendar year, and my work for that year had calmed down and slowed down and I took myself out into the bush where I live to start again my training that I was wanting to do to make myself really strong. I'm doing it again now and I'm in a much better state than I was then. High-intensity interval training to get strong because that's another thing that has to happen around menopause, you know. You have to get strong.

So there I was out getting strong, but I pushed it too far and I hurt myself and I ended up having quite a horrible experience with an injured hip that required me to do a lot of physical healing and repair work in the way that I was standing, like get all this on on a metaphorical level as well.

Angel: You're talking to the poet here. I'm going to see everything on the metaphorical level. [crosstalk]

Jane: SO how I was standing, how I was pushing myself, how I was looking for shortcuts, et cetera, just in my own in a world, ended up meaning that I had to do a program to go right back to the original bones of me to heal myself so that I could be actually strong with an actually strong body. The reason I'm telling you all this is that it was when I was finally at a point where I could walk again and had the strongest core that I have ever had, that's when the news came.

Angel: Oh my Gosh.

Jane: That was pretty interesting. It came in a letter, and I'm really dredging this up from memory now. It came in a letter like a few days before Christmas or something, telling me that I had to respond within like a week or something. Something ridiculous that was actually going to be impossible because of the Christmas holiday and everything shutting down. Interesting ploy telling me that I had to change the name.

I wasn't allowed to use the term midwifery or midwife as it was a protected term and that they were worried that I was going to be-- I'm paraphrasing it, but, tricking the public into thinking that I was training midwives who would trick the public into thinking they were registered midwives and they weren't and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and that the term midwife was a protected term and I had no right to use it, although I was a registered midwife myself at that time. They told me I had to change the name and never speak of it, or they would fine me $30,000 to $60,000 every time they saw it appear anywhere, and that I mustn't talk about it in my workshops or anything, right ridiculous.

Fortunately, my core was the strongest I've ever been so I was able to just sort of go, "Ah, okay. This must be working if they're paying attention."

Angel: Fuck, yes, That's exactly it.

Jane: The case hasn't closed so I don't know what's going to happen next but I changed the name. Pick your fights, right? I'm not going to fight them. It's ridiculous. I got better things to do than waste my time fighting with people over words.

Angel: Oh my God, of course.

Jane: So I changed it to Shamanic Womancraft, which was another of Jeanine's terms, woman craft. So it felt like remaining in alliance and allegiance to her work, but also, it had a big effect on a lot of people seeing it in its new name and form and more able to relate to it and- [crosstalk]

Angel: Of course, yes, absolutely. I just love the poeticness of you healing yourself on the inner and the outer and then you getting this gigantic slap in the face that's like, okay let me test your resilience here, the interval training of life and then you go through this and then actually, in fact, what happens is you meet, right, so you meet that energy there, you meet the universe there you meet it there and you up level and then what ends up happening is more people see you, more people relate, your message resonates with more people and it strengthens your brand, everything that you're doing, your mission, and it actually creates again, a stronger, more sound legacy for her work.

It's like, Wow, all of that. This huge smorgasboard work and the fact that they were paying attention to me is so comical and also for anybody who's a part of the birth sphere, the fact that the term midwife is protected and midwives are not protected and demonized and vilified and, and, and, and is just this huge kind of control. You do what you're told, you show up as we say you're meant to show up. I just love so much that you-- Many people would have been through something like that and shot themselves. Just being like, "Oh, my God, what do I do?" A legal team, like scuffle and that you actually use this as an opportunity to actually strength train yourself even further is so fucking impressive.


You will know clearly, from everything that you have done, especially when you use the word as being a slave to the system and really quite clearly seeing what the inner workings look like, how it facilitates the conveyers of everything that we do right now. How can you paint a picture to those listening who perhaps don't have any real idea of what the not normalness of bleed and birth and parenting and motherhood looks like so that they can have this point of reference or contrast? Because many will look at normal as the societal status quo version, whereas you're trying to challenge that and bring in the actual normal, which is that self-responsibility, that self-awareness, that self-actualization.

So how can we perhaps show people what that actually looks like in a visual way, what they're given and what they should actually be looking for?

Jane: Firstly, what we need to do is understand what it means that we live in a patriarchy.

Angel: It's a buzzword. People say patriarchy, they have it on fucking t-shirts, they just say it and a lot of people don't understand what it is, so thank you for starting there.

Jane: Basically, it's a culture where the masculine, and that doesn't mean just men, right? The masculine aspect, but it has meant just men, superior for want of a better word, to the feminine. It's about the oppression and control of the feminine and the overarching power of the masculine. The casualty of that has been feminine knowledge, feminine wisdom, and feminine power and strength.

So what's happened then, which is what the Herstory's all about, is that what we see is the wounded feminine and the wounded masculine of the patriarchal culture. That's within and without. Just to remember that all of us have a feminine aspect and a masculine aspect. Probably, I think the easiest way for everybody to understand that is the yin and the yang, because find clear what that means. So we've got a wounded feminine, a wounded masculine and all of that is seen in our culture that perceives the earth as a resource to use rather than as the mother from where we've all come and it's all reinforced by our culture.

Our culture is fixated on youth and beauty and achievement and production and 24/7 on, on, on. We know that's not sustainable But there are plenty of places still on the earth that are go, go, go, production, production. But basically, what happens and how this all shows up is all the symptoms that we see in modern humans around low self-esteem, exhaustion, eating disorders, self-harm, body dysmorphia, domestic violence, rape, sexual abuse, et cetera, et cetera, and how we treat the earth and all the animals, that is because the feminine knowledge and wisdom is left out of the equation. [crosstalk]

I think what sits underneath all of this is menstrual shame. So menstrual shame is everywhere and I've got a wonderful quote here from Sharon Maloney, who is an awesome Ph.D. brilliant woman who has written a lot about the birth and the menstrual cycle. She says that menstrual shame, which is what, just before I give her quote, menstrual shame is the most common and dominant effect of our experience of our menarche, our first blood and the way our culture encourages us to manage our menstrual cycles. Menstrual shame is an epidemic.

She says, "Menstrual shame is a core patriarchal, organizing principle that instills and perpetuates male dominance and female subordination." So menstrual shame is like everywhere. Like it's in the ads for tampons. It's everywhere and it's being instilled deeper and deeper. That's part of a big part of what the work of getting menstrual and menopause workplace policies goings because we've been pretending that women don't bleed.

Angel: Oh my God, you know what Jane can I just say, I have these vivid memories of my father just gaslighting me as a child. I got my period very young like we're talking like nine like really quite young. I was put on birth control almost right away, but that's a whole other story, and my dad saying things like, how can you trust something that bleeds for seven days and doesn't die. Saying this and whether it was the ways that like God forbid there was any discharge, God forbid there were any tampons in the house. Like pads were not something to be seen.

Growing up that way, and instilling that level of hyper-awareness of the space I took up, and what I smelt like and what I looked like and how I was already dirty and unworthy and untrustworthy and unlovable at that age, will really give a visual for everyone listening as to why you're saying menstrual shame is where it all starts. Because if we are literally indoctrinating young girls and people who bleed the moment they start to bleed, that they already have to start hiding parts of themselves, they have to sever parts of themselves. That they are not safe to be around, untrustworthy, unlovable, et cetera, they then take every pattern and every story that they've made their own and then they perpetuate it for the rest of time in an exacerbated, violent, aggressive, terribly sad way, all because of the way their menarche was treated.

It's not an exaggeration when you say that because this is work that I've now been doing on myself until I just became reacquainted with my bleed at 32 fucking years old and reclaim that with that. That was important to give people a visual.

Jane: Yes, and this continues to happen. It's getting better though because there are women like you and younger and older who are thinking, "I don't want what my experience was to be the same for my daughter." If they've got enough consciousness to notice what they're thinking and saying when they're parenting, to be able to discern whether it's their own mother's or father's voice coming out of their mouths, or whether they want to have their own voice come out.

Angel: I agree.

Jane: At the rite of passage of puberty for boys, and menarche for girls, is a huge opportunity to shift the paradigm. As I said, that's where a lot of parents are waking up to their own story and how they can heal that or change that trajectory for their children. I'm so glad, I'm doing a training program in a couple of weeks soon to get another group of women organized to be offering Becoming a woman, programs for mothers and daughters to prepare them for menstruation. It's not just an anatomy and physiology thing, it's more about the magic of the menstrual cycle because that's the part we have to reclaim, the magic of the menstrual cycle.

Also, like we're talking about the menstrual cycle and menstrual shame, but menstrual pathologies through the fucking roof.

Angel: Oh my God. Hence why I was on birth control. Like even the language in my mother, I'm having to heal all these wounds for her. She's blown away, things like the word hemorrhage. I mean, I was literally told that I was hemorrhaging. I'm nine years old, she was told that she hemorrhaged, and so then I was told that I was hemorrhaging and then I needed to be on birth control and then this led me into this zero power. I was not a part of that decision-making process and pathologizing my whole youth.

I mean being on birth control this whole time, and that, of course, leading into a situation where many people will resonate with that, and then they go into pregnancy and birth and there's no question about bodily autonomy sovereignty over your decisions, because you've been doing it since you had your period anyways.

Jane: Exactly.

Angel: The moment we start to pathologize that, it's just this behavior, it's normal because you've been doing it your whole life anyway so that pathologizing is just devastating.

Jane: Yes, and it's a way to control women, is to pathologize the cycle. To quote Alexandra Pope from the Red school, "The menstrual cycle is the barometer of our well being." What that means is that the menstrual cycle is where everything that's out of balance in your life shows up, in your menstrual cycle. It's a stress-sensitive system. It's a readout of your lifestyle, and the number of toxins that you either take into your body, experience in relationship, or have in your own mind.

So the menstrual cycle is really the place I believe where we can do so much of the healing work. Because the menstrual cycle as an entity is screaming for attention. She's gone from hidden to like screaming. Not that she wasn't screaming before, but I think the sheer amount of pathology these days is really what's getting everybody's attention.

The pill, like the pill, it's so famous it's called 'The'. I just hate that the women who get put on the pill aren't realizing what's happening to them.

One of the most important things that women need to know about going on the oral contraceptive pill is that when you're on the pill you are attracted to men that you would not be attracted to if you weren't on the pill.


Angel: If you do not intimately understand your bleed and your orgasm, you do not know yourself. That is my philosophy. You cannot know yourself if you don't understand your bleed and your cycle and your orgasm, because there's a level of intimacy here that is almost covert. Like you need to know full throttle, full like a clean slate, how it is that you operate on the insides without any--

Let's talk about the trendiness right now is undisturbed birth. Like how about undisturbed existence? How about if your body had no pills in it? How about if you weren't influenced by the hormones that you were taking or the food that you were eating? It is a really confronting conversation for people to have with themselves. They avoid the reflection in the mirror. They avoid the inner knowing and how many people I meet that say, "I'm on the pill because I would die without it, and my bleed would be out of control. Of my bad moods would be erotic and my skin would be terrible."

It's the same conversations I see in birth like, "I needed to get the cesarean and I needed to get this intervention, because or else my baby and I would have died." There's this era of defensiveness that derails from the core issue here. The core issue is you cannot understand the landscape of your being and be literate in what it means to just be in total synchronicity with your ebb, with your flow, with your personality, with your expression, and be free within that. If you do not understand and you are not free from the shame of all that is associated with bleeding, and with orgasm and intimacy with yourself because there is no power in pathologizing your power.

You cannot expect to pathologize everything that gives you the power and give that decision-making process to the person, the expert, and the theme like you're talking about before, and walk away from that still anchored in that defensiveness. It's not possible. It's like wake the fuck up. I'm getting a little bit upset because it's this weird, another polarizing divisive conversation where it's just a fact and the people on the other end are getting incredibly defensive.

There's this quote I saw recently about how birth control is the longest uncontrolled social and science experiment of all time. I'm paraphrasing that. I remember bringing that to my mother of course and having this conversation with her and her being floored because birth control has been a feminist act. It's like all disguised in a way to make us all believe that these are ours. The book Moody Bitches ties in so well to what you're saying about if you only knew that you being on the pill makes you attracted to the people that you would never look at twice, right.

Realizing that what happens is on that hormonal birth control or any for that matter, a veil is lifted and all of a sudden your instinct, your intuition, your bullshit radar, your threshold and no patience for ridiculousness is ever-present, and your life changes as a result of it. It's transforming. This is the ultimate radical, rebellious act of the woman and the person who is bleeding is to know their blood and go back to the root of that menstruation and that menstrual shame because it will literally catalyst a different, a totally different life.

By the way, this is something that I take very seriously with my children. They are part of the conversation. They watch me change my cup. They watched me use my blood and water to water our plants. There's literally no conversation that we do not have because it's exactly what you said is that this is where the hope for a new paradigm is coming from. Is believing like, "Okay, maybe we actually do have a chance of changing the conversation in just one generation."

Jane: Exactly, and I've seen it happen. I've seen this change in one generation with the community that I was part of down here where I live where we used to honor the rites of passage for the girls whose menarche came that year and for the boys who turned 13 that year. We watched over a period of almost a decade, the little girls and little boys watch the bigger ones who were getting their period of turning 13 being honored in the way that they were by their community. They were so looking forward to it, particularly the girls. "I can't wait for my blood to come," instead of fear. The other thing about contraception that I think is really a bit of a clue as to what it represents is the pill makes everything easy, or an IUD or any other hormonal thing like the steak or the needles, it takes away a level of responsibility that we actually have to take.

Angel: I'm going to trade convenience and this option because knowing myself too much work or charting to too much work or understanding how I move with the moon or fuck that it's too much work.

Jane: Well, imagine that. If women, obviously not just women taking responsibility for it, but men as well. The way the focus on contraception is absolutely fucking ridiculous. There's so much healing that needs to happen around this concept in the relationship and with oneself and obviously in partnerships and whatever other arrangements happen. This I feel is another really big place where change can happen and actually must happen but can happen. If we are really honest with ourselves about the dangers, actually, of hormonal contraception, then we can make the changes into taking responsibility for our fertility as opposed to. For example, the pill turns off 150 mechanisms in your body.

Angel: That'll be very sobering for many people listening right now.

Jane: I know that it's the easiest thing to do. I was on it for eight years. My mother said to me when I was around 17, "I know you're having sex. Let's go to the doctor and get you on the pill." This is a long time ago, and that pill would have been super duper much stronger than they are now. I was on it for eight years, and I didn't know any better. However, the information is out there now. Everything. If people look at the side effects of the drugs that they easily and willingly take, then I'm sure they wouldn't take them.

Angel: This is the thing that they believe because everyone else is doing it, then it's okay for them to do it too. There's almost this blind level of trust that comes with perhaps every status quo presented to every single woman on this planet. That is If we're giving it to you, it must be safe when we know through history, how many-- Right now I'm looking at the pill that was given to me when I was young. Now there are class-action lawsuits against it because of the things that have happened in direct relation to it when at that time, it's the safest pill on the market. I remember things like with all these issues and complications, we moved me to an IUD.

Then the IUD had these all these implications and consequences. Then we did this and we did that and I would have done the revolving door with all of this for years until I took back this knowledge. Through it really realizing today that the individuals I work within pregnancy, gestation birth, I often find that I'm going to be bold here and use problematic. The most problematic clients I've ever had, the most challenging clients I've ever had, the most challenging conversations I've ever had, the most damage control situations I've been in even despite the fact proactive all of the things I could have done as a doula who knows what I know, as a human, are the ones with zero understanding of their bleed menstruation, or are always the ones who have been shamed or scorned or been like, "We don't talk about that in our house or should take the pod," who have been on the pill their whole life, who have come off the pill just to conceive, who are completely distorted, but within their brain, that's the reality.

Therefore, having to break down what they perceive as normal, having to help them recondition and rewire a circuitry that actually has censored them from knowing everything they need to know in their life before getting to that altar is impossible because as you said by that point, they're already on that trajectory. They are already on that trajectory and that is the boldness of this statement is that if you do not catch this inner work here, screaming to you to pay attention early on, it's a problem.

This is why we know that you look at things like Louise Hay and the way she talks about the manifestation of physical ailments even the ways that our wounds are crying for our attention in order for us to move through that inner work. Looking at things like endometriosis or all of these issues that plague bleeding and the womb and pain and having to look people in the eyes were coming to me for advice and say, "Straight up. What are you harboring? What are you packing into your uterus that you have not unpacked that it is literally bleeding out screaming for your attention because it has tried every other medium to communicate with you that you have not paid attention to."

Then looking to that womb as the crystal ball. Everything inside you as-- Did you know that every question you're asking me right now that I'm actually no position to answer? In fact, every question you have, how clever is that? Your body has the answer that you're avoiding. It's like a very confronting thing for people to hear. They want to continue to believe that they have made the best decisions that they have could have possibly made and that's fine. You know what, once you know better, there's the requirement to do better.

Jane: Absolutely.

Angel: Then the luckiness of the "haphazardness of birth" whatever it is, we like to believe that just happens because that's the luck of the draw is not. When you realize that all of the work you could do beforehand to-- I love the way you described it, the setups and the “structuralness” to get there is not just the level of responsibility that comes with knowing your body and really believing in your body and knowing yourself and knowing what the sound of your instinct and intuition sounds like, is a non-negotiable in this life. It is a nonnegotiable in 2019 where people get distracted in these conversations about how we're women going to be kept safe walking down the street at night. That's a very important conversation to have but how can we have the conversation about how women aren't even safe enough to know themselves and be themselves within the skin that literally carries them? We can expect women and people to be revered and respected and kept safe if we keep pathologizing and shaming their existence. We can't have one without the other. It absolutely will always tie back to the same way that blood unites us all is the same blood that breathes life into every single one of us from the womb up. You have no choice but to know yourself. That's how you can challenge every norm presented to you.

Jane: We're speaking about menstruation and menarche, menstruation and birth and then there's menopause. As a midwife, I was convinced that there couldn't be anything more powerful and transformational than giving birth until I went through menopause.

Angel: Everyone says that. Everybody has said that to me and there it is left off in the distance, left out of the conversation, pathologized to the fucking extreme with every medication you can think of in the same way. What realizations did you make about the story perhaps you've been sold about menopause, and then getting there and being like, "Is this the world's best-kept secret or what?"

Jane: Well, I knew a lot about it already, because I was very aware of all the rites of passage and whatnot, but I hadn't had my own experience of it. That was really the big piece for me was in realizing that when I got to menopause I needed to remember and it took me a while to even think to do this. I needed to remember everything that I had learned already so far in my life so that I could apply it to my experience of menopause. It's such a big thing. Basically, through the mother Season of Our Lives, which is like the summer of our lives, so our maidenhood is the spring. Summer is the mother. Autumn is the postmenopause. I call her Margo and then the winter is the Crone.

In the summer season of our lives, we conceive, gestate and birth human babies and all manner of other things. The idea is that we learn from our experience. My suggestion to everybody is to actually go through whilst is still fresh in your mind, all the things, all the experiences you've had of conceiving, gestating and birthing, all the things that you have. As I said, they can be babies and other things as well. To figure out, take it down to one or two words that that experience taught you about yourself. It could be something that you didn't even know about.

For example, my first birth taught me about surrender, because I didn't actually surrender. That was the teaching of it, surrender. If you can figure out what the teaching is from one then you can take that to the next one, which is like the smartest thing you can do is to learn your lesson from one experience so you can take it to your next one so you don't have to have the same experience to learn the same lesson. Then if you can take one experience's lesson to the next, then you get the next level lesson and then again and again and again. What you can come up with is like a formula or an algorithm or a series of teachings that you've had through the birthings that you have had to create your own formula to use whenever you get into a situation and you don't know what to do or if you're stuck for one of the better word, that series of teachings become your kind of like life lessons.

Then not only are they useful in everything and I just add also that whatever you learn about yourself in birthing the baby or the business or whatever is the characteristic you need to take to mothering that child or taking care of nurturing that business or whatever. That's a big piece of information and it's going to be different in each thing. This little sequence of teachings is what one needs at menopause and I guess at death.

Angel: Basically, that collection of everything you have learned follows you through to that place you get to menopause. You need that inner knowing that in that insight, that perspective and those lessons in those kids to carry you through. Just even the conversation, I'm actually realizing this and I started realizing it when I spoke to Martha, who's one of my dear friends about her experience in menopause and how much it's challenging her to look at things that she didn't even know she needed to pay attention to. There was pain and there were things that came up for her that she hadn't even thought about in 30, 40 years that kind of resurfaced them and starting to think about, "Oh my God, hold on a second, "and then I rewind back to everything I knew about menstruation and menstrual shame.

Then going back to everything that I've ever heard about menopause which was, spoiler alert, completely clouded in shame and realizing that I needed to do the work now and everything I knew about menstrual shame. Dismantling all of it so that when I get to menopause, I'm not doing the same kind of backward, half past work to kind of damage control myself through that because it's obvious that every single person I speak to who is going into that season of their life, every single, mark my words, every single person says the same thing and that is, "oh my God, I thought I knew who I was and what I was doing and where I came from and where I was going until I got to this place."

It's like this, the seasonal change washed over me with this-- something that is equal parts chill as it is fire. All of my attention was brought back to that. "Okay, you need to learn what it is you need to learn now, quickly or that's how it manifests in all the physical symptoms." Would you say that everything that women complain about when it comes to menopause or all of the conversations around menopause and all of the ways that it's virtually not even discussed really and only discussed in a way to manage, would you say that that's equally as problematic as the ways that we discuss menstruation?

Jane: Well, yes and birth, it's a clue, anything to do with the feminine that's put down, made fun of or turned into a taboo or not talked about is a clue that it holds power.

Angel: Oh, mother truck. I just had a light bulb exploded in my brain. Everybody needs to rewind and hear what Jane just said, oh my God, that's it. I'm done. I'm going to just write the hugest poem ever afterward. You're absolutely right. Anything that is essential-- it's kind of like when somebody is teasing the most powerful person in the room because that power makes them feel inadequate or that part makes them feel uncomfortable. That strategy is to bring the insecurity and their self worth lower in order to energetically bring them down and dah, dah, dah, dah. Exactly the same principles. Any opportunity where that has been tabooed vilified and made to look gross, make it look disgusting, made to look like too much is a clue to the catalyst wherein power can be accessed and power can move through. That is freaking magic.

Jane: Menopause, like second to childbirth, probably the most feared thing and least understood. It's a huge transformation. Dr. Christiane Northrup says some wonderful things about it. She says it's the mother of all wake-up calls and that it's also designed to heal all the unhealed parts of you. In traditional Chinese medicine, it's referred to as the second spring.

Angel: Wow.

Jane: There are big changes and it's not business as usual and that's where the problem comes in because we're trying to make it business as usual but we're not the same person. We don't even know who we are going to be or who we are going to be the next day necessarily because we've never run on that hormone cocktail before, but the thing is that it's a place of power and that is reflected in the experience of orgasm, orgasms postmenopause up off the fucking charts.

Angel: Even after birth for me. afterwards like when I came out of my lo, my orgasms changed. No surprise that it moving through that season of life, it would be amplified again.

Jane: Yes, the other really huge thing about post-menopause, menopause is the last period. You never know when it's going to be and perimenopause means around either side of that last period. One of the big changes that happen is due to some different things that different hormones end up doing is that postmenopausal women have increased visionary capacity and increased intuition.

Angel: Wow.

Jane: Which is really powerful. According to Jane Fonda on a TED talk that she did, postmenopausal women are the other largest demographic of women in the world. I'm doing another proofing at the moment with another wonderful woman Rhea Dempsey, who's an author and childbirth educator and all-around awesome woman, we are doing a thing called grandmother urgency. Basically, what we're wanting to do is to unite grandmothers and that doesn't mean that [crosstalk] postmenopausal women or grandmothers, same thing. We're uniting the grandmothers as a force for good. Menopause is like-

Angel: What an initiative, wow.

Jane: Yes. Menopause is huge and it's-- In my workshops, I say to the younger women, well, don't worry whatever you sweep under the carpet will come out at menopause.

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Jane: Imagine if we knew about menstruation before our menarche by being taught by watching our mother.

Angel: Positive awareness.

Jane: Especially the boys. Especially the boys because how a boy experiences his mother going through the menstrual cycle is going to set him up for [crosstalk] and obviously the girls, making a positive menstrual culture, normalizing the menstrual cycle, et cetera. Imagine knowing that before you menarche so that the menarche doesn't have to be 35% of women. In the recent research we did with the Walter project, which is being released in the book about About Bloody Time: the Menstrual Revolution We Need to Have, 35% of women who were in this three and a half thousand women who were interviewed. 35% of them had no idea what was happening when their blood came. That's something we can change straight away, and that's something that would have like, well, we know has-

Angel: Huge impact.

Jane: Huge impact. Imagine learning about the menstrual cycle before time, imagine learning all about birth before you got pregnant because you lived in the community and you were part of the team that was part of the support for everybody in the community who had babies, it was a normal thing, not something that you were sent away to be confined or something. Then imagine knowing about menopause before it came. Then we're not, sort of like in these terrible sorts of setups of landing into this place where we've got no fucking idea what's happening. No preparation, no idea and just full of fear. Then imagine what it would be like if we welcome these transformations that are going to happen whether we want them to or not, welcome them and respected them. Just doing that will shift the culture.

Angel: Isn't it almost excruciatingly simple that we could literally change the world by bringing this level of awareness to people and how that would just magnify and amplify the feminine energy that is just again that let's just say not to gender this but in terms of the yin and the yang and bringing that softness back to things and bringing that just deep respect for our ability to die and be reborn and to bring life and to all of the things that we are able to do bringing that, marrying it to just knowing before. We know this that the cause of a lot of trauma and grief and disappointment comes from not having had the conversation prior. A lot of this comes from misunderstanding and misinformation and how we could literally change the landscape of this just by getting that level of inspiration and information to people.

The other thing too is, it almost makes me devastatingly sad if, I'm being honest, when I meet midwives and doulas, and I've been very vocal about these midwives and doulas and people who are gatekeeping at some of the most monumental. Monumental is an understatement. Moments of people's lives and they, in all of their arrogance and denial, believe that they can truly show up as the best chauffeur and confident and gatekeeper and birth worker and all of the things that they claim they want to be by avoiding all of that inner work in themselves.

All of the midwives and doulas I know who have no idea about what it means to be living in their own bodies who have no relationship with their blade, who have no relationship with their sex or with their orgasm, have no self-respect for themselves have actually no understanding of what it means to be in an undisturbed on influence existence to really reveal themselves were then coming to this level of work and whether that's deep transformation coaching, doula, working midwifery, and think that they're not complicit in the problem and think that they're actually not enabling this level of patriarchal behavior to keep moving around in a little beautiful red ribbon. By not looking within themselves and thinking about, "Fuck. Okay, so how do I feel about my own body? What do I see when I look in the mirror? How am I imposing and projecting that on my children? How have I projected that on my children? What patterns do I keep repeating? What cycles have I avoided breaking? What wounds have I avoided healing? Can I really look within myself and believe that I am showing up to hold space for a person who needs to be being in that same place, healing and moving and shaking and think that I'm not doing more harm than good?"

It really does blow my mind. This is a conversation that I have very aggressively and assertively with my own students because how can we believe that we can fix "birth," that we can better or remedy or rectify the disaster that is systemized status quo, conveyor belt, factory setting, junk food, drive-through experience of what it means to be human, by literally being severed from the soul of ourselves. By literally being strangers to the seed in our womb. It is not possible. I really want to use this opportunity right now as a call to arms and as an invitation for those listening who are working with women or those identifying as or people who have wombs and really just look within yourself and ask yourself, "What inner work am I avoiding that is actually, unintentionally, inadvertently, subconsciously causing me to create more harm than good? How am I challenging the same system I'm trying to fight by challenging the system within myself first?"

Jane: That's it. I've been running workshops along that line for years as well about birth keeper, know thyself so that everybody realizes exactly what you're saying. The same preparation that women need to do to give birth, like going through all of their rites of passage, to figure out what the setup is, is the same inner work birth worker needs to do to figure out what their agenda is that they're taking to birth.

Angel: Can I get an Amen!

Jane: Because that's what happens.

Angel: I feel privileged to even be breathing the same air as you right and having this conversation on the airwaves because people do not get it. If you look at training when it comes to doulas and birth workers when you look at the college, vocational stuff that you see for midwives, there is no discussion as to the mystery and the etherealness and the underworld and the magic and the mysticism that comes with being a woman it like through time. Forget it. There's no self-reference. Everyone's busy blaming Maybelline because "They're making us hate ourselves. We buy lipstick." Meanwhile, we're the ones buying into and perpetuating all of this body dysmorphia, by avoiding the ways we create a reverence for ourselves.

Then the same birth workers are coming to the birthplace and be like, "I wonder what's wrong here? Why can I help this person? Why is it this level of trauma? Why is this outcome in this experience?" Let's not get distracted with unnecessary cesarean and the conversations about whose car seat is installed the right way versus not installed the right way. Instead of being like, "Maybe we should actually be considering bringing in this level of knowing into the ways we train people in these places." Because you just cannot move without it.

I had at least a few students gently inquire into the level of spirituality in my doula training and kind of that it was confronting and made them feel a little bit uncomfortable and they were just vocalizing it in a nice way by making a comment about it. Really, quite unapologetically, I stated that I will and will not ever run any training or workshop or learning or professional development or coaching that does not involve this level of mysticism because that reclamation of the witch tradition and the reclamation of what a new to know the way my body moves with the moon and the way that I carry everything I need to know within me before I pay anyone else to teach me those things, is how we're going to combat the culture of the expert. It's so huge. The waves of the work you're doing, even just with the colleagues you have, it's gigantor. We're talking about lifelong legacy shit, Jane.

Jane: We're in a window of time, you know?

Angel: Yes.

Jane: I think we have a very brief window of time here, where we are actually whether we realize it or not, creating the response that we will have to give to our great-grandchildren when they say, "What did you do at that time? What did you do? Did you do something? Did you do something to help it for us?" What we're doing now is the answer to that and one of my main missions is to wake up the witches.

Angel: I love you. I just love you when I'm speaking and I'm like, "Listen, your inaction or your action right now, the conversation that happens with your great-grandchildren on the day when they say in the world is post-apocalyptic and they ask you, "what did you do? What did you do for things to change?" The conversation is you're going to have to live with that. Not me. The ways you wake up, and the ways that you take responsibility and the ways that you do so gleefully, enthusiastically, and the ways we do it, collectively, the ways we support each other, to have these conversations, and the ways that we actively create a legacy that we're proudly and confidently passing down to our children, and to the eggs that will carry our grandchildren and to the stories that our great-great-great-great-grandchildren share with theirs is everything and that starts in your blood. That is where the rebellion is. That is where the retaliation and the fuck the system will come from in the way you know yourself.

What a pleasure it was to have you here. Where can people find you? How can they lick your brain, find your face, buy your shit? Tell them

Jane: I have a few websites, janehardwickecollings.com. You can see various things I've written about all manner of things. I have a bookstore with all my books for sale. I've got pregnancy books, menstruation books, and a children's book called Mother Nature's wisdom. I also have a Patreon page. Patreon, if you don't know about it is a subscription model place. Basically, what I've set up there, a variety of ways you can access whatever it is that I'm bringing, or all the things that I'm bringing. I offer some cues and clues for how to live a magical life. There's an opportunity to sign up to get lunar phase and seasonal shift information and what to do about it all the way up to a private mentoring arrangement with me of which there's only a few available at any one time. Patreon is where you can actually access my work or The School of Shamanic Womancraft which is an international women's mystery school and she has her own website, schoolofshamanicwomancraft.com and we offer programs over a year, year-long programs and other workshops all around the world. This one's starting in the UK in February and hopefully in the USA the following year, 2021. Currently in Australia in Mullumbimby, Mid North Coast, Blue Mountains and also Tasmania and South Australia next year. Really, we will come and this is part of the plan, we've got a bunch of teachers trained up over the years. We will come and offer these year-long programs to anyone and everywhere, all around the world. All we need is about 20 women in the circle and we'll come and we'll do what we know we need to do which is to wake up the witches. Lots of books for sale that I've written, blogs, newsletters, janehardwickecollings.com and Patreon.

Angel: I'm going to get on there literally right after this. Thank you so much, Jane. I know there are many people here who are going to want me to say this, so thank you for sticking through with this. I'm sure it has not been easy, for lack of better words, ride really believing in yourself and backing your instinct and your intuition to the levels that you have and the ways that you've dedicated yourself to this professional development and personal evolution inspires the shit out of me. I am just so excited that I get to share what you know with my own daughter and my own son in a way that I wish my mother could have done for me in a way that I would heal her and in a way that I know I can heal my grandmother just by listening and being around you and taking in what you've already created. Thank you so much.

Jane: Thank you.

Angel: Have a beautiful day, Honey.

Jane: Thank you.

Angel: Bye.

Jane: Bye.

Angel: If you have a body of work and mission, a message that has been founded on the basis of being the lone wolf and persisting in a state of conviction and passion and self-belief and ruffling your feathers and breaking the rules and getting down with your bad stuff, well, I want to hear from you. Head on over to angelagallo.com or simply look below in the shownotes and there'll be a straight-up link for you to get me your information, get the world your inspiration.

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