Safe Space Witch and Radical Ancestral Healing with Lotus Fire

Posted by Angela Gallo on

I want to introduce you to one sensational seeress of the senses. A professional feeling mover and safe space holder. Lotus Fire is my guest today and I have really enjoyed witnessing Lotus become who she is supposed to be. I have never seen someone move with as much finesse as this human being when it comes to dancing on the lines of trauma, reclaiming pain and really making it your power. Lotus has taught me so much about finding your demons, going, arching, and begging the darkness to come and play. Working through those very real and very necessary emotions that we’ve been taught to squash for so long, and being okay with feeling not okay. 

 Lotus is a lover of all things experiential healing, darkness, birth, descension, rebirth, reclaiming emotions, reclaiming feminine power, shadow work and inner child work. She has recently published an e-zine, “I Know Another Mother: Childhood Sexual Abuse” which is made up of art and stories from mothers with the shared experience of childhood sexual abuse. Lotus is in the process of relaunching her online course and space, Being With What Is, which is a foundational course for all things healing and unfolding the present moment. Lotus also works 1:1 with people to unfold a process from their inner wisdom of experiential healing. These sessions can be for anything from trauma healing to birth prep to working through a body symptom or simply a desire to step into the unknown and see what unfolds.


  • Finding out where you have come from to reconcile with who you are now
  • Finding power in intergenerational trauma and darkness
  • Rewriting family stories to break a curse and make plans for where you're going in the future
  • Keeping a safe space within your body for you and for your memories
  • Using the body to express emotions of the curse - happy, sad, shame, guilt
  • Children expressing the emotions that we hold on to and avoid fully feeling



Instagram: @thelotusfire


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Angel Phoenix Arsenal: Hello everybody. It is me, Angel Phoenix Arsenal, but also Angela Gallo and also Ang Gang, and also Ang. I'm still getting used to being who it is I really want to be. I've just gotten back from five weeks, maybe six weeks, maybe seven, I have no idea anymore, from events around the country. I took my kids to Bali. It has been go, go, go.

The lessons that I have learned during this period about myself, about my work, about my ravenous and insatiable desire to build and birth so many things have been un-fucking-precedented. 

I wanted to kick off this return podcast because it is the first podcast that I've actually recorded in a number of weeks. I wanted to make sure that I hopped onto this return edition with a very specific message, and that is, are you ready? Thank you for listening. Thank you. Thank you.

There have been thousands of downloads, thousands. When my amazing podcast babe Bri calls me and she's like, "Hey," from Bamby Media, if anybody's wondering. She's like, "Ang, holy fuck. There were 3,000 downloads of this in the last few days. There were 2,000 downloads of this in the last few days. You're #15 here. You're #3 here. You're #2 here and you're #1 here. Ireland, New Zealand, Scotland, the Netherlands, Germany."

I have had these full-blown episodes that almost feel like I'm disassociating in the most whimsical, ethereal way possible. Like out of body experience where I'm looking down and I'm thinking, "Wow, imagine who is being impacted by my rants and my just pouring of the heart out of."

When I go look at the stats and I'm reading your reviews and I'm reading your comments - even those of you knuckleheads who leave me death threats and insult me on the review section - it still is such a remarkable experience for me to see how layered and kaleidoscopic this experience has been for me. Starting a podcast, writing it, showing up, as exactly who it is I'm meant to be and each of you is strengthening me and encouraging me to be even more authentic than the day before.

I hope that as time goes on and the more intense these conversations become, you feel even more inclined to participate, engage, and really take action in your lives. This is not meant to be a linear experience. Our human lives are not meant to feel bad. We are meant to be feeling. We are meant to be reeling in that sacredness, in that wholeness, in that ecstasy, and this is exactly what it's about.

It's about picking up all those pieces we lost along the way and bringing them all back together. I really truly hope that this, whatever you want to call it, sermon, church, ear, sex, orgy, den of the thieves, gives you everything it is that you want to have on my show, Slaying The Status Quo in Total Style.

On the subject of feeling, I want to introduce one sensational seeress of the senses. A somatic mistress, a professional feeling mover. Lotus Fire is my guest today. The way the Lotus and I met is actually probably student, I guess, teacher-wise and inner social circle-wise and really seeing her become who it is she is meant to be. Watching her step into her power and watching her reclaim every aspect of their history.

I have never seen someone move with as much finesse as this human being when it comes to dancing on the lines of trauma, reclaiming pain, and really making it your power. Lotus has taught me so much about finding your demons - going, arching, begging the darkness to come and play - and what happens when you are totally okay with not being okay. Without further ado, shall we welcome Lotus Fire? By the way, one of the people who inspired me to change my fucking name. Lotus. [cheering]

Lotus Fire: Hello. I'm so fucking excited to be here and I can feel in my whole body the whole energy of whatever's about to unfold. I'm really leaning into - I can feel my mind being like, "Oh, God you have to know the things to say," and leaning into like, "No. That is not what this is about." Entrusting in whatever unfolds here and the magic that we are about to stack up.

Angela: Can we actually preface this conversation with a smidgen, if you will allow, your family history, how well it is documented? Perhaps your journey in finding out who it is you are and where your family has come from in order to reconcile and heal who you are right now and make plans for where you're going in the future, because I really feel like that's something we need to touch on?

Lotus Fire: Absolutely. My family on my dad's side is the one that is quite documented. On that side of my family, my ancestors came over on the Mayflower from England to America and we're quite well off. In government and staff and in high positions and we still have our family farmhouse in Maine that my ancestors used to live in. There are paintings of them on all the walls. We have the John Hancock signature. We have this old spinet, which was what they had before pianos. There are like three left in the world. The other two are in museums and it's just this treasure. We have horse-drawn carriages there and we also have our family cemetery there as well. Yes, so it's quite a property. That's just a piece of the history that I know, that I have access to because a lot of my family members, particularly my grandmother, my dad's mom, recorded a lot of stuff.

She actually wrote this little book for me and my cousins about our line in particular. I have this amazing little bound book with all these pictures and who they are and all this stuff. It was something that for a long time was always there, and I didn't know about any of the trauma stuff. I mean, I was living it and so it was the norm and there's also all sorts of dissociation and stuff going on.

When I started to unfold my healing journey and to wake up to the trauma that was happening in my life, which was when I was 17. I didn't have any idea what kind of journey I was embarking on, and essentially took me a few years to awaken to and accept the fact that I'm a father-daughter incest survivor. It's on that side of my family and it's something that is intergenerational. It's been in there for a long time in my family.

Since then so much has happened and shifted in my life, and particularly since becoming a mother. I knew about this and I was well on my healing before I became a mother and motherhood just really and all the circumstances and things exploded it all for me. I remember hearing someone say that, "Postpartum is all your ancestors by your bedside.”

When I heard that and I was like, "Oh, my God." That's what was happening to me, but it was like a nightmare and I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know how to connect with that and I such an aversion to connecting with it because I was terrified. Since then I've broken a family curse. I've done all sorts of things, I have had journeys and experiences but I never--

I always used to speak to spirits as a child and then really shut that down and that all started again. Then opening up to, especially when I was at Witch School with you, I had reconnected with this book of my ancestors and these pictures. It all started to come up and I built this incredible connection with a few of my ancestors, whereas before I just felt like, "Stay away." Now I have this whole other story that's unfolding and, yes, it is all beyond my wildest dreams.

Angel: I feel like you've just blown my fucking mind away because you call yourself a safe-space witch. Do you understand the parallels here? Not only before, because you really, truly are for me the embodiment and the emblem of the flag of what it means to keep a safe space. Not like the tokenistic performative way, and I know you're an energy worker. I feel like with the story you just described, you've taken safe space to a whole other level.

This is like literally connecting to spirit and source and to the hauntedness of your ancestry. The heaviness of that hauntedness and I can imagine you're in postpartum and vulnerable. Particularly, I think you showed pictures - was it yesterday or the day before - after Calico was born. You're like, "I was barely hanging on by a thread there." The image of you, I swear to God I didn't even recognize you because there were no lights. I know I have pictures of myself like that.

I was like, "Holy fuck," and now hearing you describe postpartum as having the ghosts of your family by your bedside and that being a nightmare, while you were literally hanging on by a thread. What you're about to do to create a safe space in your body during that time in your life, for your son, for your relationship, for your career, gives me so much context. Now I have to say that, after witch school, you've literally, I don't want to say exorcised, but cleansed and calibrated all of that spiritual energy too.

You really have truly taken safe-space witch to a whole other level. On this subject of breaking that curse, can you share that story since we're both aficionados of the heroine’s journey, what the heck happened when you broke that ancestral curse? I know there are many people listening, who know that their lineage holds a story, that they keep repeating patterns that they keep bringing into their lives and they know this. Can you walk us through that a little bit?

Lotus Fire: I was at a workshop, a three-week workshop, almost a year ago actually, was with what these people called Innate Wisdom Connection, and they do this thing called map work, where anybody can step on to this mattress, and then basically a process unfolds. Anything can happen in this process from a soul retrieval to talking to your inner parts or other shamanic stuff and bodywork and emotional stuff. It's just like this mystery mattress. It's incredible.

I had just had this sense. I ended up bringing a family ring that I had that's been, I don't know how long it's been in my family for, but I brought it and I put it on the altarpiece. I just have this sense to just bring it on to the mat with me. I brought it onto the mat. I sat down and I have this image of there's like a green emerald, or these two green, like triangular-shaped emeralds in it. Just that green just really still sits with me to this day.

I just was like, "I'm not really sure what I'm bringing this ring here for," but something had come up as well, a few months prior to this when I went to do an ancestral healing with the two people that run these workshops, with the drum and going up the family lines and that kind of a thing. We got to this point where Phoenix, the woman that runs the work, said she had this sense of like a haze going on and was there anything that I knew about any kind of curse, or like anything that might be blocking or anything that came up?

I was like, it's really weird, but the only thing that I know is that this one time, as I was getting ready to move to New York when I was 17, I was like taken Adderall. I could pack and I was like staying up late like all hyped up and my dad was in his office. He was always up for a chat and in many ways, with the most present parent I had. I went into his office. He said to me, "I think maybe you can get away from all of this and start over in New York, and you can get out of this family stuff."

I was just like, "What are you trying to say here?" He said, then, “I think I put a curse on this family.” I was just shocked because my dad was like, not a believer in any kind of curse or spirit. He was just absolutely not about any of that. I was just like, really shocked. Anyway, I sit down on this mat with the ring, and the curse-thing comes to me. I was like, "Well, this thing has come to me around how my dad said he put a curse on the family, and I don't really have any idea what that's about."

It came up in this ancestral healing session and the ring was from my dad's dad side of the family. I know quite a bit about my dad's mom's side of the family, but my dad's dad's side of the family is pretty dark. What I do know about it is pretty dark. Anyway, Phoenix says, "Do you want to pick someone to play the role of the curse?" A lot of this work involves roleplay. Then I pick someone. I swap with them, and I speak from the curse, just trusting whatever comes up, just taking a deep breath in.

Anyway, this whole process unfolds, where essentially, at some point in my family history, my ancestors had slaves, and a few people in the room can see as well, this woman in the room, and I can hear her and her children were taken from her. She was raped and abused and assaulted, as were her children, by my ancestors. To put a curse on my family, that all these things came out around, essentially that we would do similar things to our own family.

I can't even find the words to describe like what was happening in that space. I heard her and her pain, and I was feeling all sorts of guilt and just keep shame, and like, good thing you put a curse and like what now? It felt at first, like, how do I even ask for anything? Then Calico, who is my son came to mind and knew that I had to end this for him. I asked her if it had been enough, and if it was time, and I committed to continuing to do this work and committing to healing my ancestral line and the things that were done.

Acknowledging that what was done that there could never be any kind of repayment or whatever for that, but have the suffering been enough and was she willing to help me break it? She was crying, but it had gone from like this really intense wailing and rage and stuff to a surrender or peacefulness. Then Phoenix intuited and just said, there was another person who was in the process with me.

She said, "Now, the two of you go to the river, and cover yourself in the mud three times and wash yourself in the river." We were like in this bush camp place. We walked through eucalyptus trees to this river. It was like, my first real experience of being surrounded by spirits. Like the whole bush was just full of people. People from Australia and this women's lineage.

It was just full of people and I could hear drumming, and it was like the bush was alive. It's like all these animals. We went to the river and I got naked there and got into the river and did the thing and came back and that was that. Shortly after my toddler got bitten by a spider and woke up in the middle of the night screaming for like a very extended period of time and have a bit of a fever. My son's about also is that it was part of it leaving his body.


Angel: Wow. What's the one- like literally weeping right now. Thank you for sharing that story and also the way, safe-space witch, that you honoured that woman who your lineage hurt by checking in to see if it was okay for that story to be shared, and how much of that story should be shared and checking in with yourself. At that moment, just witnessing you create a safe space for both you and the memory of that person and their children was really really, really beautiful to see.

A complete testament, of course, to who it is you are in what it is you do. Weeping because everything that you have survived, again nobody talks about post-traumatic growth. Nobody speaks about what happens to you when you allow yourself to be frightened enough and confronted enough and triggered enough, to have not only your logical brain obliterated, but every fear that is cuckolding you to the floor annihilated. Like smashed to smithereens.

Just so you can access whatever is waiting for you on the other side that is exclusively accessible. If you are not living in your logical brain, or in your victim-brain, or in your- I have to be sad and I can't heal because I'm more committed to my sadness and that story than I am to rewriting that story. What kind of a mother you are, and Calico's not going to understand until he understands.

How beautiful is it that now you have a digital recording and that you have your work, and you have social media that is going to literally blow away any story that could have been written by your ancestors in any book about the main flower that is just like the Bible chopped and changed and made to sound like the family were lovely and this is the little story and it's bullshit, that you literally have this.

Look at the story. You haven't just literally broken a curse, you're rewriting the way your family tells stories. You literally have rewritten the way Calico gets to read the story of your family and that curse and making all of those people who have suffered along the way their stories real, making them feel believed, which has probably not happened for many, many, many-

Can you imagine truly how many people in your previous generations who weren't believed, who weren't supported, who were harmed and who suffered and whose parents inflicted this, let alone acknowledged it and how that little story kept getting told in the paintings and antiquities and all this stuff started piling up around them? The core of that pain remains unaddressed, and what you did in that space, in that forest.

You truly are one of the only people I know who does that much personal development work. It's one of the reasons I'm obsessed with you. Truth be told before this call, I was in a scenario where I was trying to explain again, to students that the nature of the world, the uncertainty of the world commands that you be okay with ambiguity, that you are totally happy being flexible, that you are a lover of all things Change.

That you are obsessed with excavation with yourself self-propelled research and search and like, I need to know myself and people are waiting for all those damn things. They hate ambiguity, they're obsessed with time, they're obsessed with control, they're avoiding the inner work, they're allergic to feeling, and they think that that certification or that degree or that diploma is going to get them to where just they want to be and it never happens.

Instead, they chase certifications, you, on the other hand, my love, have literally made a human career out of chasing personal development and spiritual awareness and healing. I'm just seeing you move through just the conversations you still have at the beginning about trauma to now, the layeredness of this is just so beyond just trauma.

We're talking about the spirituality that's imbued into this, the way you mother, the way you parent, the way your community, your relationship, the way you tell stories, you really are this multidimensional creature right now. It really, really does show. I'm just truly witnessing that and honouring that and just so excited for Calico because fuck how many cool stories is he going to get to read and see on video, on podcast and be like, "Wow, that is love. That is dedication. That is motherhood personified,"

Right off the back of a live IG I did yesterday about our irresponsible and pathological consumption of parenthood, and why we have kids for very wrong reasons, and how we take no responsibility in really doing the inner work, but we're so excited to pass the curse on to our children under the guise of, "Well, I changed their nappies. They eat and they have a place to sleep."

It's so beautiful to be like, "Okay. All right. We're moving towards a different paradigm, a different future. This is a co-creation. I didn't just birth my children, they rebirth me." What are we doing together to rewrite the future? It gets me really, really excited. Frankly, sometimes I get really bored with the trauma-related conversation. I get very bored with vicarious trauma. I'm not giggling at the topic. I'm giggling, "Hello, this is Grace right now," for everyone who thinks I'm an insensitive asshole. I said that.

The conversation is so redundant. It's so polarizing. It's so defensive, it's so reactionary. It is so entirely anchored in victimhood, or in avoidance of responsibility for that trauma and I'm bored. I'm bored because there is no resolution. There is no conclusion. Everyone is addicted to being sad. From where I stand, it's either, "Hey, we make a decision to do everything that is the opposite of feeling like shit while we heal."

That is why not just- like as Aaron says, Dr Aaron Bull, "Step into the diarrhea bath, be totally okay being covered in shit and see what happens when we get on the other side and have fun, and laugh, and play, and be in our bodies, or just continue to be sad about our growth." There's a video of Calico I think he's screaming in a pillow could it be, or he's doing something you're talking about it. That's what I want to segue into this next thing is parenthood, motherhood.

The teacher-students, student-teacher relationship we have with ourselves and with our children, and the work you've done to heal, and how you've mastered the art of a feeling, and what the hell it is you're teaching Calico. I want to share with everyone listening right now, what it's taught me as a mother. I'm just telling my son or my daughter, "Look, you're angry. Cool, let's find a way to move this feeling." It's totally okay, to not have to wait for the feelings to pass before you take action.

It's actually so beautiful to move from the emotion instead of dishonouring that emotion by waiting for it to pass. Because by extension, we treat those emotions as subpar, as less palatable, as always waiting for them to leave or be more convenient. How have you brought all of your healing and all of your mastering of feeling into your relationship, obviously, with your child to your relationship with your partner? How are you hoping to let that infuse into the ways you build community and teach your own students?

Lotus Fire: First, I just want to say that I think one of the big reasons that so many of us are in the sadness for so long is because people aren't actually fucking feeling it. That's what happens if we don't move with the feeling it stays lingering. It's like a small percentage of what it is all the time. I think that's a lot of what depression is. It's unexpressed grief, and there's so much around unexpressed anger as well.

Angel: I'm so sorry. I have to interrupt because I have to say something. I'm snapping my fingers here on the video. Every other creature, animal, plant on this planet shakes. Every single breathing something on this planet knows how to implement the somatic practice in order to shake off the feeling that cannot stay stuck. Anything in the world that stay stuck suffers. Anything. We're looking at a river. If the river stops to move, it turns to a cesspool.

We cannot believe that as a highly sensitive, highly feeling, almost superpower-esque people that we are doing ourselves a service and we are keeping ourselves healthy by believing that we have to clutch to the old feeling that doesn't serve us like old rusty pearls and not suffer the consequences for it. It doesn't make any sense. Even my dog shakes and stretches. It just doesn't make any sense. I'll stop interrupting you. Go ahead.

Lotus Fire: And makes noise. That's like you cannot- if a dog wants to bark, a dog is going to bark unless you traumatize the dog, and then they might be quiet. That's what's happened to all of us. We're quiet because of what has happened. The birds like a fucking kookaburra, however, the Australians say it, they just laugh as loud as they want to, don't give any shits, if anybody's hearing them or thinks they sound weird or whatever. That's how we're meant to be.

We have this thing and there's so much of the stuff around emotions that's out there, I think is just in the mind. It's just we have this new shiny neocortex in our heads and the patriarchy loves focusing on it and being like, "Yes, it's all about the mind and look how smart we are." We have this ancient wisdom in our limbic system in our mammalian brain that has been with us for so long.

People want to say "You need to upgrade. Look at this new thing up here," and it's like, "How about the gut? How about the heart? How about our fucking emotions?" Because they're not meant to be worked out in the mind. They're not meant to just be logically organized and like, "I'm feeling angry. This is what I will do now." Anger is there for a reason.

So much of what is happening is that we have stored up emotions from childhood, and from things where it wasn't safe enough to let out the noise, to let our body do what our body needed to do. From infancy, from in the womb, we pick up on all of these things. We have these things in there. Then something happens in the present and it triggers that from the past and our logical mind is like, "I shouldn't be angry about this. This shouldn't blah, blah."

We're unconscious of so many of our projections and things. It's most likely, it might be like 2% about what's happening in the present, but it's 98% about what happened in the past. The screams, we haven't screamed, and the joy we haven't jumped for joy for because we had to sit in our seats at school and shut up and listen to the teacher and we couldn't stand up and move our bodies.

There's so much wisdom if we move with emotion, and they're there to tell us what we need to do. It's all linked to our intuition and what we need and meeting our needs. People always want to find another way around it and its body of sound. That's the core of it. It's been so amazing on my journey, because I did a podcast interview recently with another Dynamo and talked quite a lot about emotions.

When I first started my healing journey, it very much was in the mind. I remember having this wheel of emotions, which is very useful to be able to start to identify what they are, in some ways, but it would be like I'd be looking at this charge and be like, "What feeling is it?" [laughs] To move from that, to actually exploring in my body and with my voice.

Going through the emotions, happy, sad, mad, bad, shame, guilt, whatever the core ones discussed, and just practising, just having a practice of what is it like to move this with my body and sound and pretending. If I don't know, because often it's not safe enough, and there's so much resistance and whatever, what would it look like? If I was an actor what would it look like?

Then when it comes up in the body, we can begin to know, and we can begin to notice. Motherhood and parenthood is the perfect time for this because when we have children, they're not yet socialized and that's exactly what they do. We believe that toddlers have the Terrible Twos and that it's horrible and whatever. I was with my toddler recently, and this dad was just like, "Don't worry, it usually stops by three." I was like, "I'm not going with a toddler."

Angel: Because they treat them like fucking training animals, which is already abhorrent. That's exactly what it is, instead of realizing that, sorry to interrupt you, is that our children are literally born to help us break up with our bullshit and reprogram how clever is mother nature, that it creates an opportunity for us to literally have everything we have wedged between ourselves and our body intelligence with a baby who comes in and is like, bang, nuclear bomb, "I'm going to help you remember how to feel."

Instead, we look at that opportunity and we're like, "No thanks. How can I control-cry? How can I make this child settle themselves? How can I help them become allergic to feeling before they even feel safe enough to mitigate their own feelings?" That is shocking. Absolutely shocking to me because we look at the six senses. We look at the ways that our body is literally designed to help us follow what feels good. All of these amazing releases. All of these incredible opportunities to be in a state of receivership and output.

Yet we literally imprison ourselves in our fucking minds. There we stay and we call it intellectuality. We call it, “I’m just so much smarter than my body. I don't need my gut health. I don't need my third eye. I don't need anything else. I don't need love. I just want to become a cyborg humanoid who is literally a skyscraper with a neocortex.” Okay, walk the dog who was the biggest dick and off we go. It's really, really unfortunate because that is not even an iota of how we should be living within that physical feeling experience.

Lotus Fire: Absolutely. I think toddlerhood is an emotional awakening and deepening that it's like an initiation. It's like a part of a rite of passage, I think of our children. There's totally a shadow part of me that does want to be like, “Stop it. Everything's fine. You're crying about dumb things," like whatever it is. It's that building this relationship with emotions, it's a critical time to explore and build that relationship.

Often our children are also expressing what we're holding on to. That's part of where the fucking intensity comes from because we're not feeling our feelings. There's so much when I talk to parents about emotional expression and children, and there's so much fear, I'm like, “What if I express my emotion with my body and sound in front of them, and they have a reaction.” There's all this idea about, "You remain calm, and you take deep breaths, and you be the calm centred person for your child."

It's like, if that's what's real for you at that moment, awesome, great. If that's not what's real for you, at that moment, also great. What you can do is own it, instead of letting it come out sideways and yelling at them or holding it in and yelling at your partner later when they come up saying, “I'm feeling really angry right now.” Going and expressing that anger beating a pillow on the couch like or just being like, “Ah,” and shaking your hands and gritting your teeth or, “I'm feeling scared.”

It's amazing to see, like if I tell you Calico and show Calico that I'm feeling afraid when he's doing something, he's like, “Oh, right.” He can tell if he's climbing on something, and I'm feeling scared instead of pushing my fear onto him and being like, “No, don't do that. You can't do that. Get off of there.”

Letting him know that I'm scared helps him to relate because emotions are how we're meant to communicate with each other. It’s also not meant to be in isolation. I heard about a study recently, where people tend to, if they've cried alone, they tend to tell someone about it. Like, “I was just crying yesterday,” because we were meant always to be witnessed and held by each other while we’re crying.”

Angel: Oh my God. That makes me want to wail. Also, you are not doing your children a favour by diminishing or disguising every part of your emotion. How many people have you heard even, “I don't know if I should bring my other child to the birth? It's going to traumatize them.” In my head I'm like, “Lady, that's not going to traumatize your child. What's going to traumatize your child is them not ever knowing their mother or their parent, and then never thinking all those other emotions exists because they've never seen them in action.

Therefore, you actually rob your children of an entire library of emotional reference points, which they can then use to build their own story versus have two-select emotions, and then feel absolutely unstable, and then this type of stuff, ‘Is something wrong with me? Why didn't my mom ever feel like this? Why didn't my dad ever feel like this? Something must be wrong with me.”

It's so obvious that we are not doing the right thing by our kids by not showing them how it is we feel. I love your approach of simply naming the feeling and saying it straight off the bat of, “That frightens me when you climb on that.” Same with me, my son is going to be much more likely to respond to that than when I'm in shadow mom mode. It's pointless, by the way. He never responds when I'm like, “Please don't do that. Stop. Stop. Don't do that.” He's doesn't give a shit. He's just like, “Why? Why should I?” Whereas-

Lotus Fire: Unlike literally showing him. Showing your body's being like, “Ah, I feel scared."

Angel: Frightened. Absolutely. If something happens where we've become separated in a store, we watch a lot of crime podcast together, and we have a lot of really important conversations. One of those, of course, is the realities of opportunistic criminals, individuals et cetera. Now if we get separated even just briefly in a shop, I will very clearly show that I'm not angry. I am scared because there are not good people in this world.

His reaction to that means that my kids are so independent, but they are so hyper-aware of everywhere we go, and how they feel, and what is going on, and how they are so safe to explore all of their sexuality, sensuality, fears, concerns, adrenaline thrill with me, but where it is not safe and why.

It all started with me, the boundaries I set with my own self, my life, where I express my emotions, where I make compromises, where I don't make compromises, what kind of conversations they see modelled, what kind of behaviours they see modelled. The only thing I care about, Lotus, is that my kids feel they can grow up and be who it is, they truly want to be on the inside, and that they can change their mind every five minutes if need be.

That they don't need to commit to any emotion, or any archetype or any anything. Just feel safe to express those feelings second to second, because much like you, I believe that our sickness is coming from the atrophying of our soul because the vitality has been sucked out of us. We're so far removed from feeling and so obsessed with chasing immortality, we are literally strangers to ourselves. That really just is the greatest tragedy for me in modern history and where we're at right now.

Lotus Fire: Absolutely. There's so much to be said around all of that. I think there's so much I think the new age culture movement has brought a lot of beautiful things, and a lot of spiritual bypassing and harm because it's come out of our patriarchal culture and it's come out in response to that. It's very much also in line with that in many ways, and there's this whole idea of high vibe emotions and low vibe emotions.

What I’d love to know about that is whether or not people are actually expressing emotion when they were low-vibe. Because if we're experiencing shame, and we shut down, and we sit here like this, and we're not actually expressing the shame, obviously, it's going to be low-vibe. If we were actually moving with the shame and like, “Oh my God. Don't look at me. I need to hide. Oh God, I'm a horrible, disgusting-- Oh, God.” I don't think it would be as low-vibe.

Not to say that there aren't still differences and energies and things but we chase. We just want to feel good and all these things, and then we end up feeling so shitty so much of the time because we think we should be feeling a different way instead of trusting our feelings. In this world, so much, is fucked. There's so much to be angry about, and there's so much that needs to change, and so of course, we have a lot of anger.

Especially, if you look at the way that parents are parenting, and like you were talking about in that live the other day, of course, postpartum depression and all these rights and things are the way that they are. The answer is not in the logical neocortex. It's about getting back to our wisdom and how we are meant to be and moving from that place because we have it in us to create something new.

We have it in us to break this whole fucking thing down. It's happening anyway. It's just about choosing to come home to ourselves and choosing to trust our wisdom. Like you were talking about earlier about people being worried about time and the knowing, and not wanting to be unsure, and it's like all the patriarchal like shadow masculine stuff that our society is built on, and the feminine has just been squashed deep into the shadow.

It's terrifying to reclaim that, and it is so fucking powerful. That's where the magic is, is in reclaiming what we already have inside of us. There's this constant search for, like you said, the certification or the next thing, whatever it is. It's actually, whatever needs to happen is already happening right now, We're just not listening.


Angel: As well, I was just thinking about how many of us have lived really problematic histories as children. Whether that's abuse, sexual abuse, physical trauma, trauma of any sorts, and we have these overbearing parents who have made us feel X, Y, Z. A huge reason we avoid that shadow and that expression of anger or whatnot, is because it triggers us, it makes us think of that person.

A lot of us are really caught in wanting to be the total opposite of what our parents were, which means a deep suppression of the deepest expression of our emotions right in their darkest places, or an internalizing, a deep sick internalizing of all of those parts where we feel shameful because we recognize that we are, or we feel like we are the worst expression of our parents. Then also there are those who become exactly like their parents, but that's a completely other situation.

That has been difficult for me to see. When we talk about low vibe emotions, just because I'm obsessed with this book, obviously, Power vs. Force, and they talk so much about the vibration of the feelings. The movement being that distinction. It's like, we all have the capacity, what I'm trying to say to be the murderer. We all have the capacity to be the perpetrator. We all have the capacity to be the predator.

We all have the capacity because it's a hardwired thing to survive in a situation, and you have the strength and you have the capacity to do bad things. The sooner we realize that there's no shame in our shadow that we're actually all built to bad and good things, but it's what our emotions and our body bring us and da da da. That will free so many of us into just being who it is we are instead of staying stuck and feeling sick, by just being ourselves and not understanding why we feel so upset.

I really truly believe if we look at the worst cases of pedophilia, sexual abuse, et cetera. When you actually go and take a look at studies and research, many of these people will say that they try to safely express their urges, and they try to safely express those feelings so early in life and were made to feel so ashamed and so terrible and so awful. That it was an internalization that ventured into that explosive behaviour, into that extreme behaviour.

When we're looking at preventative measures, when we're looking at having to see the full spectrum of the experience and having to witness not just what feels non-triggering, but giving people safe places to really just say exactly how it is they feel and holding them through that. It's not that this is irreparable, it's just that it's going to take a lot of work.

With that pioneering, with that crossroads we're at, with that reimagining of our relationship with ourselves and with our feelings, it's not going to be pretty, it was not supposed to be pretty. If you bring it into that place where you use the movement, and you dance with those feelings, and you give yourself the love that only you can uniquely give to yourself, as you venture in the deepest, darkest, dirtiest, but delicious feelings of your human experience, we really have a shot at doing things differently.

I also just really want to say that you're not broken because of your feelings. You're not broken. You're not less than because of the millions of shades of colours that you feel that you are. You don't need to commit to a feeling. You don't need to label yourself as the bad guy or as a nice girl or anything in between.

That's been a huge lesson for me this year, is reclaiming that rage and really honouring myself when I am angry, when I am feeling cheated, when I am feeling terrible because so much of that has taken away, particularly for people with uteruses who grow up and are told that they're constantly crazy, that they are erratic, that their emotions cannot be trusted, because somehow there's something marionetting our feelings in the womb.

That's been a really, really huge lesson and it's given me a chance to go to the places of me that are the most pissed off, that reminds me so much of my mother when I was a young person that scares me, and really reclaim that and be like, "Well, I'm falling in love with every part of myself," not just the parts of me that feel poised or feel palatable. Therefore by extension, what are we really giving our children?

Lotus, I could speak to you for 1,000 years, I just want you to close this conversation with what it means for you to move from the feeling, not waiting for the filling to move out of your way before you can be you again, where people can reach you, how they can work with you, and what it is you're trying to do right now to challenge every norm when it comes to big bold feelings and what people should expect from you.

Lotus Fire: It's about realness and about being with what is and presence and trusting in the magic that is there and trusting in all of what's around me and owning my shadow and owning the uncomfortable parts and this deep exploration. You can find me at @thelotusfire on Instagram and on the interwebs. I'm also on Facebook, but...

One of the ways that I'm really honouring my feelings and my process and my healing and everything is by continuing to do all of the work that I do on myself and leaning into the trust in the process of my business and of my creations. Sometimes that means it looks really messy. Sometimes that means, I have shame come up around like, why did I go this way or that way or whatever, and trusting that there's something in that for me.

Not that I need to push it out of the way, but trusting that like there are no accidents, that that's what's there for a reason. Unfolding that process and allowing it as it unfolds, and allowing myself to dream up the big dreams because that's what's coming. I have always felt like I'm going to be a big part of shaking things up in this world, and I'm going to be a big voice for so many things.

Currently, I have one-on-one virtual sessions and in Melbourne, we're also living fan life. Stay tuned for where our travels will take us. Those sessions are deep experiential healing sessions where I work my safe-space witch magic and also weaving all things Dynamo Doula and just really Witch. It can be anything from birth to healing childhood stuff, planning for postpartum and whatever. It's not like a linear, we sit down and write down a birth plan, not at all. It's far beyond that. It's really about trusting what comes up and unfolding from that place.

I recently published an ezine called, I Know Another Mother. It's a collection of stories and art from mothers with the shared experience of childhood sexual abuse. That's available on my website, and I'll be adding new volumes and things as I feel too. I'm currently relaunching my online space and course which is called, Being With What Is.

It's an entirely new up level. It's been so fucking uncomfortable, but I'm in it and we'll be launching all the details in the next few weeks. That's really a foundational space for all the things that I teach and the spirituality stuff and the emotional stuff and working with shadow stuff and inner child stuff, and a space designed to hold you throughout your healing journey for life, because healing is a lifelong journey, it's not a fucking destination.

Angel: Yes sir. You just get better and better because it's new level, new devil, right?

Lotus Fire: Absolutely.

Angel: You can't heal one pain and one thing, and then, "Oh, I'm good." It's like, "Here's a cut. I figured out how to heal this cut," then you break an arm. No, it's always going to be more intense. It's not like your wounds will get progressively more awful, but your pain will look differently and taste differently and feel differently. It has to be a lifelong lesson. It's also an approach of looking at what's the lesson here? What is the gift? What am I learning in this moment right now?

I am completely convinced that things- this is not a cliche, this is not a spiritual bypassing. This is nothing. This is my deep belief as a person who has experienced. We all experienced trauma. We have all experienced something that has morphed us, that the forging can only happen in the flames and that your true self and your destiny and your potential can only be pulled out to play when the house is on fire, for lack of better words.

Lotus Fire: Abso-fucking-lutely.

Angel: You would not be able to access those parts of you without who the fuck it is you were in that disastrous moment where you had to just figure out, and also the body intelligence that comes with surviving and disassociating, and literally creating ways for our body to survive these things.

I just have the utmost respect for the ways that we have evolutionarily quantum leapt into reaping lessons from the most horrific of situations and excited about what we're going to apply from that pain, and how we're going to turn that into power over the next decade. I'm really excited. My love, thank you for being here. I'm going to have you back again, because there are so many things I want to discuss, intentional community, building community, challenging the status quo by literally designing your community.

It has been a pleasure having you here. Thank you for modelling what it means to be a mother and a pioneer and a person who plays and expresses such big feelings and big emotions. I know that you're going to do fucking huge things. Watch out world. For those listening, thank you for tuning in. If you have not honoured the full spectrum of your emotions today, what are you going to do about it? Go and have some fun and live those feelings out loud. It is not a good time being stuck.

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