Your Negative Money Mindset Is Stifling Your Growth with Coraline Dufroux

Posted by Angela Gallo on

If you take a moment to think about your relationship with money, how does it make you feel? Do you immediately go to the negative self-talk about all the ways you don’t deserve to grow wealth because you’re not smart enough, you haven’t studied the right things or you’ve grown up thinking that money was bad. That age-old saying is going around in your head, “Money Can’t Buy You Happiness”, so why try to accrue it.

Well, let me tell you, this type of thinking is never going to get you anywhere. You need to change your mindset around money, and you need to do it immediately. If you’re living a life of scarcity, taking no risks, setting small goals, thinking small, then this is all you’ll ever have. How about you educate yourself, you start working hard, and you flip that dialogue.

My guest today can be best described as Carmen San Diego. A sweet, unassuming type character at first glance but when you get to know her and hear her story, you’ll see that she is actually the international woman of mystery.

Coraline has been playing in the business arena for close to two decades, shadowing her parents in their home business since the age of 11. She has a fascination with all things business and making money; but not in your a-typical style. Her wealth of knowledge was acquired through the ownership of multiple businesses, being an active property investor and developer. By the age of 27, she had accumulated a fair chunk of cash which enabled her to live with choice and freedom; however, it wasn’t all a rosy trip! Divorce, failed investments and losing 7 figures taught her a thing or three about sustainability during these rough times and a thing or two about the way society treats “failure”.

Coraline holds knowledge on what most consider “the secrets of the rich” and is committed to bridging the gap on all things money and wealth accumulation for people from all walks of life. 

Coraline mentions her “Money Game” on this episode. If you’d like to play, here’s the breakdown:

Every day, you have a fictitious amount of money to spend. Starting on Day 1, you have $100 to spend.
Every day after, that number increases by $100.
Day 1: $100
Day 2: $200
Day 3: $300 and so forth…

– You cannot re-spend that money on something you have previously spent it on (example: Day 2’s money is not to be spent on groceries if you already allocated oney to that on Day 1)
– You must spend it ALL. You can INVEST it, providing where you’re investing it adheres to the previous guidelines.

The magic of this game is often noticed a few days into this game, once you’ve exhausted all of your usual spending habits.
– What do you default spending money on?
– How does it feel to spend the money?
– At what point, from a dollar aspect, do you feel discomfort?
– What stories are coming up for you every day?



  • What is was like building up a real estate empire, and then losing it all
  • Building yourself up again after a failure & learning from your mistakes
  • Treating your challenges as necessary lessons
  • The importance of taking risks
  • If you live in a scarcity mindset, you will never grow your wealth
  • Finding your financial wing woman
  • How vital it is that women talk about money. How to make it. How to spend it. How to love it
  • Not relying on anyone else to provide you with an income. Hustle
  • Steps you can take to change your mindset around money
  • Money comes, and money goes. Be more fluid with it, but strategic


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Angel Phoenix Arsenal: Hello everybody, and this is Angela Gallo and you are tuning into another episode of Slaying The Status Quo In Total Fucking Style. What do we have? A doozy. A doozy of a guest for you here today. Her name? Coraline Dufroux. Actually what you should call her is Carmen San Diego, because when we nut into, the mystery and the madness, and the globe-trotting, and the hot on your tail bending all of the norms behavior, that was Carmen San Diego, Coraline is the fucking embodiment of it. I want to just go straight into an introduction that involves meeting this person.

Actually, Hayley Carr, who you will see is one of also guests on the show, at a retreat called play bigger, feel better and here’s a little cover here, and so innocent, look so– You would make your assumptions based on what she looks like, what she sounds like, she’s so quiet, she’s just a very genuinely lovely person, and then lo and behold as the hours go by, these kind of cracks in the surface start to emerge and this real energy starts emerging. That was really exciting for me as a person who eats up all of the energy to see. I feel like the more she became comfortable in that space of people, the more she let out.

By the end of it, we were blown away and she just couldn’t seem to wrap her head around how complex and how much of a movie her life was and how important it was that I invited her on this show because meeting a woman who has created this level of adventure and wealth in her life, and has mitigated the level of stress that she has and has pulled herself out of the darkest holes possible, this is a conversation you are going to want to tune into if you want to know anything about what it means to be a woman or a person identifying as, and what it means to be working towards some level of short or long term wealth, and what it means to be reframing your money mindset, what it means to actually be attracting that money and then what it means to fucking lose everything and build it back up again. Without further ado, hello Coraline.

Coraline Dufroux: Hello everyone. Thank you for that amazing introduction.

Angel: We just told everybody that you were so nervous that you pood like 100 times before this podcast. Everybody did know that.

Coraline: I did text Angel and I said I have nervous poos all over Brisbane.


Angel: Which really just shows, in my brain, how you’re already preempting the discomfort but also the release and your body is like, “Let’s metabolize and purge,” which thank your body… 

I want to just bring everybody back to the moment that I met you, and I knew that you were more than meets the eye straight up, only because I can read energy and things, but I remember I’m just thinking like “Man, what’s the goal? What is the key goal with this.” Then the more you discussed it went from, by all accounts, your work in essential oils to all of a sudden you having this real estate empire and you being a millionaire by the time you’re 26, you owning your first business at 18.

In fact you were working in your parents businesses since you were 10 years old you just told me, and the absolute chaos that was economic downfall and having to pick up the pieces again, and really emerging from this finally into a space of your life that you can talk about it a lot and in public because that’s how complicated it has been for you. For those individuals listening, who cannot even begin to grasp what wealth means, and believe me we’ll get to that in a second. I want you to kick this off with who the fuck are you and why should anybody be paying attention to the ways you are slaying the status quo?

Coraline: As a young kid, I’ve always had a fascination for money. I have always had a fascination for wealth. I didn’t really give myself the space to own that because I was surrounded with people and mindsets that money was just for rich people. Money didn’t make you happy. All of those stories that we’ve all heard. I think that are across so many different cultures. It wasn’t until I met my ex-husband when I was really young.

He came from an Italian background. You know the Italians came to Australia and built really incredible wealth from absolutely nothing that I found someone else that I could speak to about that and be totally okay with accumulating a lot of money. My ex-husband became my best friend and we started building this wealth together from a very young age. We bought our first property in Brisbane for those people out there listening, I’m from Brisbane.

Bought our first property at 19 years old and I was at uni and I worked three jobs and he had two jobs as well so we worked hard for it. We went without for a few things, counted our pennies. Can we go out clubbing tonight? No, we can’t, we’ve got to pay the mortgage. We want to buy another property. By the time we were 25, 24-25, we had amassed 12 properties in our portfolio.

Angel: Basically, what you’re trying to tell me is that you went from buying the first property together at 18 or 19 and then by the time you were 25 you had amassed a 12 property portfolio?

Coraline: That’s right, yes.

Angel: Let’s just start off with– We haven’t even spoken about anything yet. You had 12 properties by the time you were 25. That’s probably 0.03% of the human population that does that.

Coraline: Yes, I think.

Angel: What the fuck.

Coraline: Well, if I break it down and I’m not trying to take away from the achievement that that is, but we did catch a great at the end of a cycle. We made money in upcycle that was somewhat timing. I wouldn’t say it’s luck but it’s definitely timing.

Angel: You were in the same economic climate. That is just pure real estate ninja. That is like the financial wing-woman thing that you talk about. That thing.

Coraline: I know, yes. We did the right things. We had the right people around us and we just lived it, embraced it and we loved it. With that, I will say came making wealth too quickly and a big fucking ego, which then led to the next part of the story, which I think is very important for everyone to know. I’m on a mission for everyone, women, men, everyone on this planet to really see both sides, because not everyone shares both sides of life, of business and no one’s an overnight sensation. The second part of the story is that by the time I was 27 I was divorced. My ex-husband and I had made some really bad investments. We nearly lost everything, very close to losing millions of dollars. We lost millions. The last five years has been really about rebuilding, understanding who I was.

I lost my identity. I lost who I was because it happened so quickly and then I lost it all. Obviously today I’m so grateful for and I wouldn’t take it back because I’ve learned so much from it. Now, I feel that at the age of 33, I’m rebuilding my wealth in a way that I would never have done before. It’s sustainable and I have strong foundations and now I can really continue to build wealth in a way that’s right for me without my ego getting in the way. I want to share that with people. It’s 15 years of a rollercoaster that has cost me millions of dollars but I want to then be able to share that with people so that, not that they can avoid the downsides because I feel like they taught me so much and I don’t want to take that away from anyone, but you don’t learn that stuff from textbooks and from going to a seminar.

Angel: No, I mean in fact I wanted to just stipulate that when it comes to economics in general, when it comes to money-crunching or portfolio-building, in the sphere of finances, it is such a linear hyper-masculine aggressive field. As women we are essentially told that, first of all, if we have any money that we are somehow our integrity is compromised. It really goes against everything we know in terms of motherhood and martyrdom and all of the ways that we’ve been told that profit is a dirty word. All the ways that we’ve been told that we are too stupid to manage money, that we’re judged as shopaholics and that all we’re good for is spending what the husband earns and all of these absurd stereotypes, all of this absurd social conditioning.

In fact just for everyone to understand, up until 1930 women couldn’t deposit money of their own into a bank account. They couldn’t have their own bank account. This is 1930. It’s really just something that we’re still dealing with right now. Financial control being the number one reason that women and people don’t need domestic violence situations. Money is the thing that of which keeps bad people in power and in control, and so when we speak about the ways that you’re challenging things, it’s absolutely imperative that people see that the reason they should be paying attention is that you lived the masculinity, the hyper aggressiveness, the ego, the arrogance, and the three-pumps-fuck-financing and then lost everything literally and then through that, through the shadows, and through the defeat, you were able to lose that identity.

It’s funny because I’m an Identity-Death Doula which cracks me up, and then be able to pick yourself back up again and bring the softness of you which is the spiral-ness and the feminine-ness of everything that it is you are, and you saying I would have never done business or wealth or worked with money in this way 10 years ago. It’s a clear indication that you’ve moved from that really linear way of doing things into a softer way of doing things. This is just a massively kaleidoscopic conversation because a lot of people avoid wealth because they’ll know somebody who’s lost it all or because the people that they know with money are assholes. Or because they literally have been poor their entire life and breaking that pattern is just too difficult and therefore they would rather stay broke. We have women who are just still grossly under-supported in terms of starting business, entrepreneurial endeavors, it’s still such a masculine dominated world. Funnily enough over the years, the most confronting conversations I have had with people that I’ve coached have been money-related, women and money. It seems to be this thing that actually, not seems, it is catalytic which is so much of what I’m passionate about right now.

I don’t think people understand how rare it is to meet a woman who has lived what you’ve lived and come out the other side, but also how rare it is for women to be having healthy conversations about money. Why it’s no surprise that so many women are either making money and growing their wealth in total secret or literally burning everything into the ground because they don’t know who to ask for help.

If I were to ask you a little bit more information about where you were before and where you are now and why you feel that you can confidently call yourself the financial wingwoman to women and entrepreneurship, what qualifies you to make that statement?

Coraline: I’m not a financial advisor, I’m not a financial planner, I’m not an accountant. You said something that really got me. Women do speak about money in private. They say women are so good at looking after their health, men are so bad at it. Men don’t have a forum for that. Men go out and have beers or men go out and drive cars and they talk about money, they talk about how much they made and the promotion that they got, women don’t do that.

We don’t have forums where we can call someone or just type a question. There’s just not that. My mission is to create that because I’m fortunate enough that I have a friend, a girlfriend that I can call and we both love it. The strategy and the money, we love it both on an equal level. To have that is magic.

Angel: You’re like a money Doula. That’s exactly what you are.

Coraline: I’m very similar to what you’re doing but in the money space rather than the birth space.

Angel: It’s being the confidante, being the coach, being someone who listens, someone to create the space for and wingwoman is just so beautifully representative of that. I’m sorry to interrupt you, go ahead. What you feel qualifies you for that, would you say that perhaps it’s the fact that you brought the softness in from a point of experience and a process of contrast?

Coraline: Yes, it’s definitely my experience. I feel that I’ve gone– I wouldn’t say 360 but definitely 180. My background is human resources, I’ve worked in the mining industry, construction industry and I had my property development business on the side. I still do have a property development business but I’m winding it down because the energy that surrounds it is no longer aligned with me. It’s really intense.

Again my ego for so many years held on to that label because being a property developer, that sounds really sexy. I’m a owner of a commercial cleaning business, that is not very sexy. Now I’m like, “You know what? It’s business.” and I love business and I love talking about strategy.

To answer your question, I truly believe that one, I’m always learning but we learn by sharing. Because my experience is very different to someone else’s but if we begin to share our money experiences, we can only learn from each other. It’s simple questions like, “Hey, I just got a tax bill and my cash flow is shit, what should I do?” Who do you call? I don’t know. I know who to call but I feel so many people don’t know who to call.

Angel: I’m literally wanting to word vomit a thousand different things because I’m remembering when I first met you, how I was like, “Oh my God, there’s somebody who just fucking understands.” Let’s just start with the three things that are literally on the tip of my tongue, and that is when you have vulnerable, honest conversations about money, you inadvertently create a space and you inadvertently give permission for other women to venture into wealth and risk and money loss and all the things simply by normalizing the ups and downs of business, of money and giving them a place to just navigate that.

It’s like being on a roller coaster by yourself or being on a roller coaster full of a bunch of babes. Obviously one’s going to be a lot funner than the other and the other one’s going to feel like purgatory. Understanding that– I started my first business when I was 16 years old. I’ve literally been a serial entrepreneur, literally the second that I could basically get an ABN or register a business name, I was in hustle mode. I remember doing this in secret for years, for years, years, until I started Heart & Hustle. When I mean that I was the first Doula, when I certified that I knew who even cared about money, I was like, “What the–” It made me almost exacerbated how gross I felt, I was like, “What does nobody want to talk about– How am I going to pay my bills? With high-fives?”

I saw my parents who– My dad was just terribly irresponsible with money, gambling, all of the things. We had no money growing up, we were always broke. My mother taking us out of that situation and watching her rebuild over and over and over again from two bankruptcies and what she modeled to me, that level of persistence and that level of, “No, I want better, I want better.” Then moving into a realm where I knew right after my 20s, probably in 2010 when I moved away and I first left. That was almost 10 years ago, nobody knows this, I have dollar signs tattooed all over my body, I have a tattoo that says, “Ballin” on my leg and I got this and I got so many different things. Because I get intuitive tattoos and I knew from when I was young that there is no way in hell that I’m not going to have a body of wealth when I’m older.

It took me till I was 33 years old, to feel safe enough to say out loud, “Yes, I am a woman and I want to be very, very rich. This is what I want to do with all of my money, and no, it does not compromise my integrity,” and to find people that I could reach out to, to find people that I could have these conversations with, to find people and be like, “Well motherfuck, I just got a tax bill and this is a squajillion dollars. Yep, my capital’s here and my cash flow’s here, how are we going to make that work?” To think about all the shame that I could have avoided, all of the bad financial decisions I could have avoided, all of the shitty energy that I could have just been like, “Fuck you,” at the door, if I have would have had that level of support and conversation and space is everything to me.

This is why when I say that the only way that the world is going to change is if good people have money. If we put money in the hands of good people because it defies– I feel like radical self-love and wealth in the hands of good people are actually the two ways that we’re going to destroy every non-serving paradigm and destroy everything that cuckolds everyone because those are the two things that free people. Radical self-love of yourself which allows you to love others and then wealth which allows you to use that as a tool and as a vessel to make all this amazing change.

Women have to come a place where they’re comfortable having these conversations and asking for more and taking a space and commanding more or nothing will change. Let me just say sorry, because I know that you want to say something. We’re looking at marginalized communities like people of color or trans people and queer people, non-binary people and indigenous people who literally have nowhere, I mean nowhere to have conversations about wealth or money. It’s not even a conversation that will come by them because they’re literally intentionally kept to be poor and to be money illiterate. It’s even more important that those of us in a place of privilege have these conversations because then we can bring it to these communities and these people to essentially up-level the world.

Coraline: I feel like what you’re saying is very much what you’ve done with Birth, is that fear around money. Too many people have examples of people with money that they believe are greedy or are doing the wrong thing in the world. I’m pretty sure it was Hayley who said to me, “Money only expands who you really are.” If you’re a dickhead and you’ve got more money, you’re just going to be more of a dickhead. If you’re an amazing person, then it’ll just amplify who you truly are. I love that, and it stayed with me forever. Coming back to the fear, there is so much fear around money.

It’s spoken about everywhere when you focus on money but we’re so scared of, “How’s my family going to think if I’ve got $1 million or $100,000 or a $10,000?” Whatever it is for you. I know for me, I realized six months ago, that I have been playing small because I didn’t want my friends to judge me, I didn’t want my friends to be like, “She-” I’ve had people make comments to me like, “You don’t understand, you’ve got money,” or “You don’t understand-” I’m like, “Well do understand because I was 18 years old and if I spent an extra 50 cents over my budget and bought a Freddo Frog, I couldn’t pay my bills.”

I had to really budget strictly and that is not an exaggeration. I understand, I’ve been there. I think it’s about mindset too. It’s working on the fear of society but then our own fear. People don’t realize that even the person that you think is a dickhead with a lot of money, he’s probably had many, many roller coasters as I like to call them, and he’s had to overcome them and he’s decided or she’s decided to keep getting backing up.

Angel: How about being a total projection of your insecurity and jealousy and the fact or perhaps that maybe at one time, you had money and you were judged for having money and now you project that judgment on everybody else? At the end of the day, fear of success is one of the finest forms of self-sabotage. People will intentionally cockblock themselves because they’re so afraid of what it feels like to have the financial freedom and the abundance. You know this as well as I do, and then they turn into this manifest or shit show.

Coraline: And because we’re attached to our stories, I see it within my family. I see it within my friendship groups. It’s like, “Who am I if I don’t have this story anymore?” Not all of us are supposed to be millionaires. I just want to put that out there too. Some people said to me, “You know, Coraline, you always talk about millions and billions and it’s not going to bring you happiness.”

For me, it’s not about that. For me, money is not about what it can buy me. It’s not about the status. I say this with a smile, you guys come see me, but I get really excited because money is an indication of how much I’ve developed myself. Your net worth equals your self-worth, or your self-worth equals your net worth, whatever it is. For me, it’s that constant like, “Oh, okay. This feels really yucky.” Like, “Oh, okay. I’ve got to push through this and what does it mean if I push through this barrier?” It’s like this podcast. It’s a perfect example.

Angel has known me for I think 12 months and she’s always like, “Share, share, share, share, share.” I’m like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.” Slowly, slowly, I’m getting out there, but I have had some fear around being judged around talking about money because I know how much I love it. I’m like, “Am I really ready to experience that backlash? Am I ready to come out there and say, I love money?” Now I am more comfortable in saying that. I’m not afraid of what others think of me because I know why I love money and I don’t need to justify it.

Angel: It’s interesting too because I remember being on Hayley’s thing and sitting down. Just because so much has happened for me in 12 months and sitting down and thinking like, “Okay, I have no money and I have this huge tax bill.” Saying that a lot and being like, “Wow, I can actually say this to a lot of people who won’t judge me.”

Thinking about you saying your story and how there’s not even on the lives of my children, there’s not one moment where I’ve heard you say your story, I was like, “Oh, she must be irresponsible.” I think that this comes to me is that I looked up my dad and everything he did, as the lack of money we had as a reflection of the total irresponsibleness and negligence and asshollery of what he did.

My whole life, I basically was so petrified of people thinking that I was broke or making bad financial decisions because I didn’t want them to think that irresponsible finances made me a shit person. Then on the other side, I was like, “I didn’t want people to know I had money because then they might make those judgments there.” It’s like, “How the fuck do you operate within?” Either I’m judged, damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Then you find yourself in these places where, again, it only reiterates that zero space and zero forum for a person to come and feel like they’re not being judged about the money that they’re making, or not making or vice versa. Actually, Coraline, besides your world, before you started creating this work, and we’re going to get to that in a second, could you actually find any female-fronted money-making spaces? Or did you find yourself primarily surrounded by dudes?

Coraline: Yes, dudes. I find women are really uncomfortable to talk about money. There’s a lot of labels as well. I just want to say that the labels are huge, and that’s both with men and women, but definitely, I have a girl friend who loves money equally as much as I do and she’s probably the only one. It’s funny my partner said to me the other day, only two weeks ago, he said, “We’ve been together for about six years. It’s like I’ve only just really caught on daunt to how much of a nerd you are.”

I’m like, “This is real. I can’t believe you’ve just caught in onto it.” I think he picked it up because her and I being together, we totally nerd out on this stuff. We just love it, but because we don’t have that forum with anyone else and it’s about being creative and it’s about being strategic in the things you do. I think it comes back to those labels. I hear you talk about in the birth world, and it’s the same in the financial world. “Oh, someone’s got debt, so they’re bad people or someone’s gone bankrupt so they’re a failure or you’ve got a bad credit writing, so you can’t get an electricity bill.”

Well, hang on, that doesn’t define me as a person. It’s just a stupid system that’s been established. Then you’re put into these boxes. I want to say to the listeners, guys, if you come across someone who’s bankrupt, or who’s been bankrupt through business, not through consumer debt, that is very different, who’s gone bankrupt, or who had to liquidate a company through whatever has happened, listen up to those people because I can tell you that they’re the ones who have learned something from it.

They’re probably more savvy than that person who only talks about their successes. People who have learnings or who have gone through things like that are the people that you want to get advice from, that you want to bounce things off with.

Angel: You shouldn’t be meeting anybody who’s bankrupt for making assumptions. You shouldn’t be consumer or business. It’s like this idea that this system that we–

Coraline: That’s a label too, good point.

Angel: Yes. The credit rating, which is literally how we’ve been operating for years and years, which we know for a fact is the most inaccurate way of jumping somebody based on what’s going to work and what’s not going to work and that’s constantly changing too. The people, of course, have placed their value on how much they have or their credit rating. Did you know that credit rating is one of the top few things next to what you weigh? Your credit rating is the one thing that you just don’t tell people about because it’s super taboo because of the reaction.

You’re automatically judged if you have this or if you don’t have this. In fact, listening to you, I just made a realization that I want to say only about a year ago, I finally found a bookkeeper that I love. Her name’s Sallyanne Buttsworth. Prior to this, I avoided this realm of money because I have no attachment to money. I see it, I love earning it, I love spending it. That’s all I care about. The people that I met before this, whether it was accountant or financial advisors, there was no soul.

Here’s a fun fact, because I enrolled in accounting and studied for three weeks and literally left because I was like, “This is fucking crazy, like no soul.” That only really amplified my avoidance of it, because I was like, “Okay, you’re not coming anywhere near my business because you don’t understand how I operate. I take the risk, and then I inject and I do this.” I avoided it for so long. Now I’m realizing that it must be that is that I’ve literally stopped myself from accruing the level of wealth in things because I was so scared that someone would sever the soul from my business.

Now obviously, after hiring Sally and especially after meeting you moving into a place where I’m realizing like, “Hold on, there are people like me who can understand what it means to be super strategic, but also really soulful.” Those are the kinds of people that are going to help me build my wealth because prior to that, it’ll be five years or something that I have this business, and it was a shit show. It almost felt like I was talking to my dad, and he was patronizing me, or giving me shit because I spend money in the wrong place, or because it’s like, “Well, you can’t be doing that because your cash flow is only this and you can’t be making that risk.”

I made all the ramen noodles for three weeks if I believe in a project. No one has come back to me and said, “Oh, wow. How did you pull it off?” Because really, truly crawling, there’s sometimes I don’t even know how I pulled it off. They’re not equipped to do that. They’re not equipped to give you that information. Having a wing woman, having somebody by your side who’s like, “You know what, you’re single mom, you have two kids, you have this big dream. It’s fucking fantastic. How are we going to make it work? Let’s sit down. What are your numbers? How actually committed are you to this, whatever it is? What’s your manifesting module look like? Talk to me about the inner work. What are you landscaping on the inside to meet the outside?”

It’s so refreshing to have this conversation with you and feel like, “Wow, maybe my daughter and my son will actually have an opportunity of doing business and working with money in a way that feels more liberating than it does stifling, because the ways I grew up and the way so many of us grew up was literally financial control at the hands of an abuser, or only rich old white men in banks had money or only every movie you ever watched about financial demise and cocaine and the guys on Wall Street, or or or or, and mothers know. Don’t even buy yourself a pair of underwear. Don’t even do this. How dare you?” It really gives me a lot of hope.

Coraline: You hit a point there, which I think is really important is that wealth only comes when you do the work. Like when you combine the unsexyness of the numbers with the spiritual or the esoteric. I’ll share something with you. I have an amazing business coach from one of my businesses. He’s 79. He’s amazing. He’s got 50 years experience in the business and he’s quite good. He’s quite up with the times, but he’s still quite old school with some things. I’ve learned so much from him.

Yesterday he said, “Okay Coraline, you’ve got a big goal for the next financial year, how are you going to get there? What’s your business development strategy?” There’s a part of me and I didn’t because we were in a different space, and it wasn’t the conversation for it, but I was very close to saying to him, “I don’t actually know how I’m going to get there, but I just know, I’m going to get there.” It wasn’t what he was looking for at the time. It’s so important. It sounds so blue. I know 10 years ago, if someone said that to me I’m like, “No, I need it from the textbook, and I need number 1, 2, 3. I need to follow the rules.”

Now I think it’s because of what I’ve been through and what I have been through has taught me that number one, if you are listening and you are going through something whether it’s financial, spiritual, whatever, just know that you’re going to get through it. Just know that you might be in the middle of it at the end of it, at the beginning of it, but the light is nearer than you think. When you get out of there, when you see the light and you get on the other side, you’re going to take a big deep breath out and you’re going to see why all of that happened.

Angel: That’s where you reap the fruit of spirituality and esoterism and the mysticism and the manifesting. You don’t find that level of deep diving gift by getting everything right and by dying with a huge portfolio and a big superannuation and a big bank account. This need to be a level of soulful excavation in the shadow work of what it means to grow and lose wealth as a woman. Which by the way, we’re just perfectly prime because we create taxes, we regenerate taxes. We are literally programmed to die and come back to life every month, we are programmed to lose everything and regenerate.

Don’t be confronted or intimidated by money, because it’s just another one of those fluid concepts so we can make ours and instead realize that if you can combine the esoterism and the mysticism of the strategy, of the linear not so sexy stuff, that’s where it’s boring, because you can’t have one– You could and it’s like, it works for a little while, but you can’t create what you’re dreaming of without involving both of them. It’s just not possible. I feel like if you did it without the soul, you actually end up with no soul. That’s where the really intense ego and the arrogance and the leeches away and where you see people who are more pathologically consuming, collecting money versus circulating it.

Then if you do with just the will, which, unfortunately, there’s going to be– I’m going to say something, it’s a bit rude, it’s going to piss a few people off because they’re going to hear this and they’re going to be like, “Angel’s probably talking about me.” I have been business coaching now for almost five years as well. The level of adamant woo-woo wisdom, with no regard to strategy is what called me into this work. I’ve seen people do the same thing for years and years and years avoiding the strategy because they’re like, “No, it’s not me. It’s not me, I self-care, good, gently, I’m smooth.”

They actually end up sabotaging themselves so hugely, because instead of reaching their potential and their express potential here in a quantum leap way, they’ve got the most incremental, delayed tortoise paced growth ever. They refused to inject the two and so it’s really important to find this medium here and start challenging, all right, what are my judgments and biases about money? Where are they coming from? Where is my mindset and where actually in time was my mindset about money born? Did I see something? Did I hear something? What do I need to dismantle that?

Because if it’s not serving you to create the long term stuff, it’s not going to work, I created my mind map. I’m going to send it to you because you’re a nerd and you’ll love it. My mind knows my mind map for 2020 and it’s literally an empire of businesses. 12 different things that I’m doing. I looked at that. It’s funny I doubt that I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I remember looking at that and being like, “Okay, so now the job is going to be about deconstructing this and figuring out how much dollar bills that I need like stacks of dollar bills.”

Having these thoughts flood into my brain that literally said, literally, this is like lightning into my eyeball, looking at this mind node so clearly, that said that every single perception or relationship I had with wealth, with building wealth, with the ways that I did things had to change. Although my ability to do things that way has served me so well, and I’m honoring it.

I’m moving into an empire state of mind that’s going to require me to stay lovely and humble and all of the things but savage, and ruthless and really strategic. Unlike okay, so actually got it tattooed on me, I got soft and savage tattooed on me, because I want to create an empire of businesses, that has me feeling like the softest but sharpest tool in the shed, which is I’m going to circulate, I’m going to grow this money, get this money, earn this money, circulate this money, and fucking do all the things I want to do. I’m moving into this echelon that requires me to be having the most exuberant conversations about money, and it’s exciting. It’s really, really exciting.

Coraline: I can’t wait to have all these conversations with you. What I love so much about what you just said is building an empire. High five because too many of us are shit scared of even owning them. I really honor you for that and being soft and savage. That has probably been my biggest lesson in the last two to three years is that you can still be soft in business, but embracing your masculine side can also be really powerful. I really doubted that part of me. Now, there’s parts of me that are coming out in business that I have been hiding, and I’m really savage when I need to be. I felt guilty about that for a long time. I’m fairly recently just gone, “No, this is my right.”

I don’t have to look after everyone. I can look after myself. I can be soft and savage. Yes, I love that. I also want to say you talked about the woo-woo. For any listeners who feel like they’re to woo-woo and looking at a profit and loss statement is really scary or talking to a bookkeeper or an accountant it’s too much. I don’t understand the legislation. I don’t understand what needs to be done or get yourself a financial wing woman who understands both worlds. Who can talk you through it. I always say the numbers tell the story when you’re making a business decision. Should I make this decision right now? It doesn’t feel true. Let’s look at the numbers.

The numbers say to do it. It’s about having again that dance between the two but if you are scared of looking at your P&L, like I fraught, I cream my pants when I’m like, yes, let’s look at my P&L. Oh my God, look at these numbers. That looks a bit high. It’s so fun for me. Same side if you’re like, oh, woo-woo in the business or woo-woo with numbers.

Angel: When I say that I’m not attached to money as a concept. I’m not attached to any concepts, in fact, in general. Money is as fluid as sexuality for me, it’s just what it is. We need to understand that money comes and money goes. This is just what it is. It’s either you play the game and you enjoy it, or you let it destroy you or because you’ve avoided it because you’ve done all the things or you just never get to enjoy what it is.

This is that stupid quote. Sorry to use the word stupid, but money can’t buy happiness. I remember my whole life, hearing this damn quote told to me. That was something my lower socioeconomic neighborhood thought that they would tell children to be hopeful. I’m realizing this point in my life when I was looking at that empire thing I’ve never, and by all accounts, I’m not financially woof, but I feel the wealthiest I’ve ever felt in my life and having them say moments where I’m like, who, fuck is the person that said money can’t buy happiness.

Can he tell me because, as far as I know, being a woman who takes care of herself and her children, and can do whatever the hell she wants, including curate spaces, emotional, physical, mental, spiritual spaces, where my children and I can have a beautiful life is happiness. Who the hell thought of that? It’s like, basically the thing that they tell you so that you don’t ask for more. So that you stay steeped in gratitude, and so that you stay happy with being small and that you stay in line. Actually, the most rebellious thing I’ve done for myself, is believe that money can buy me all of the things that I want, and more and that money is going to help me change the world. Why in the world, would I avoid the things in which are going to bring me more money right now, which might have been like the profit and loss.

I know I get it. I understand that it’s nauseating. I was like looking at Angel from two years ago and I’m like, “Girl, seriously, you don’t test her because you know her as well.” She had this whole vision for Buckley’s. She’s like, “I’m going to renovate it. This is what it’s going to cost and dah dah.” She had the vision and everyone fought her on it. They were like, “No, it’s too much of a risk.” Her accountant was just making her feel like garbage. Her parents were making her feel like garbage. They’re like, “There’s no money to do this.” Meanwhile, 30 years the exact same situation they’ve been in for 30 years and she did it.

Not only did she pull it off in pure hustler manifesting way but it drastically changed the business and she created it in a way where even the people refurbishing and renovating and doing her restaurant, were like, “We’re not going to get this done.” She got it done. This realization that yes, you need to be turned on by the numbers and the crunching, instead of repulsed by them but also allow leeway for the fact that money comes and money goes and risk is a healthy part of the process. Although numbers paint you a story, they are also not the whole story because the sixth sense the underworld, the etherealness and the mysticism that exists when you’re willing to believe in what it is you want and believe in the potential of what it is you want is huge too.

Coraline: Totally. I remember having a conversation about losing my wealth. My dream was to retire by the time I was 30, and I was going to do whatever I wanted. I couldn’t dream of working a 9 to 5 till I was 60 years. I was like, “How come no one’s rebelled against this? I don’t get it.” Then losing it just before I turned 30. Someone said to me, “But Coraline you might not have the amount of money that you thought you would have, but where else is your wealth?” That is just as important conversation because sometimes we put too much emphasis on the amount in our bank account but whether or not you lose it or you make it there’s a balance in everything in life.

Someone might have a lot of money but where in their life is something not going quite right.

Angel: Harming account balance.

Coraline: Yes. That was a really great thing for me to come into reality for me, because it really put into perspective exactly what you’re saying, that I took risk, it was calculated risk, and at the time I was comfortable with it. It turned out to be shit, but at the end, I’m here today, and the value that I can bring to so many people, the foundation that I can build from my own wealth.

Angel: You know how much more that I take you seriously because you’ve been through that? Like, why would you take self-help advice from someone who has their shit together, who’s always had their shit together? I want to know about the person like you who was Carmen San Diego, hustler mode, figure shit out like a ninja, same thing like Haley. You think if Haley had absolutely no inclination of what it meant to lose everything and build yourself back up again, I’d go to her for a rebirth? I actually said this to Haley.

I’m like, “Haley, I love you so much that I am thanking every bad thing that has ever happened to you so that you could be here right now, and I could be benefiting from the lessons and the gifts that you learnt along the way,” and it’s same thing for you. If you did not learn to navigate the financial landscape of literally a landfall, let’s be honest, a total downpour of everything that could have happened, there’s no way that you could have the credibility that you do now, because it’s real, it’s authentic. That’s what women need, God damn it. They need real authentic people who believe in them, who can give them real-world advice, while helping them to maintain their softness and their savageness.

Coraline: I feel, for me now, I’m like you, I’m building my empire, and I’m really excited. Even now, just speaking about it gets me excited. If I decide to go into business with anyone now, one of my questions is, “Okay, you want to be business partners. Tell me about what’s happened to you in your career. Have you failed? Have you lost money? Talk to me.” If they haven’t gone through that, even if they tell me a story, I can tell that it’s not real. I will not go into business with anyone who hasn’t–

I’m not saying that they have to have lost money and that they’ve gone through what I’ve gone through, but there’s a humbling piece when you go through something like I’ve been through, what you’ve been through. You see the world in a completely different way, you see the way in which you’re going to build your business in a completely different way. A few years ago, I had a business partner, a man, who said to me, “Well, Coraline, you’ve had some failures and I haven’t, so I think I know better than you.” I didn’t feel the need to defend myself, but that really sat with me.

It made me realize that, well, your time will come, because when there’s an up there must be a down, and I just want everyone to know, exactly like what Angel said, it’s ebb and flow, money will come in and out. If you make 10 grand and you think that that 10 grand’s going to stay in your bank account, it’s unrealistic. It’s unrealistic for you to think that.

Angel: We’re all born, we all die and we all pay taxes. Anybody who believes that they’re somehow immune to all of that, it will catch them and it will bite them in the ass.

Coraline: It’s about being humbled and coming from a place of just being grounded and really dancing with the tune, with the esoteric and the numbers. I feel that bringing that into my businesses now, it feels so much lighter, there’s just no heaviness. It’s really beautiful. There’s so much content out there about hustle, hustle, hustle. Yesterday, I spoke to someone who said that, “One of my girlfriends is working 6:00 AM till 2:00 AM every day for the last six weeks.” I’m like, “”Okay, there’s a time.”

Your body will tell you, “Go,” where you have bursts of energy for a few days or a week, but to do that, I’m like, “She’s a mother.” I just think to myself, when I’m working nonstop, and I have done– I used to be a workaholic, I’m a recovering workaholic– from 4:00 AM to 11:00 PM. Even then, I look back and I’m like, “I wasn’t making the right decisions.” No wonder why I lost all my money. I wasn’t rested.

Angel: Must have felt exhausted.

Coraline: I was exhausted, I wasn’t very productive. It’s really only in the last six to 12 months that I’ve realized that, “Well, it’s okay not to work those hours. It’s okay.” Thanks to Haley and the work that we’ve done together, for me to realize that that dance is actually really precious, and we’re more powerful than ever. This person that I was telling you about who’s 79, he says to me, he’s amazing, “Coraline, I will only have women clients now, women will change the world.” He’s 79, he has seen so much. He comes from the world of the men, and he says to me, “My male clients are the hardest to deal with.”

Angel: Powerful perspective. This podcast is literally about challenging the status quo. I feel like I could literally speak for 10 hours about status quo, or perception or preconceived notions around money, and the million ways to challenge that, because there are so many. You just reminded me of another one, which was really revolutionary for me as well, “Work smarter, not harder.” My first business program was called, “Heart and hustle.” The idea was to bring heart-centered sustainability to the hustle part of it because I love hustling.

I am so strict in the output of my energy, what I take back in, how I function in my human design type, what part of the days I feel the best, when I have to shut off, when am I bleeding, how do I work that into this, because I know that I make my most money, I create the most abundance and I manifest the most wealth when I am beaming on my highest frequency. So many people, especially, we have immigrant parents, they work their asses off, they built everything from nothing. Their whole thing was, “I’m going to come to this country, work my ass off so my kids can go to school.”

Another thing nobody knows about me, I have a high school degree. That’s it, I don’t have anything else. The biggest thing that I could have done to piss off my father was not go to college, and create this version of my life based on everything that was the opposite of what they did, which is I choose my hours I work, when I want and I do what I want, but I also do things in a way that is so wholehearted that the ways I work in five hours is the way someone else works in 15. The things that I’ve created in the face of adversity, much like yourself, in the face of people who are like, “You can’t do that. That’s not how you do things around here.”

“You need to be working this many hours and you need to be spending that much money.” Do you think any of those people come back years later, and they’re like, “Wow, I was wrong, maybe I should consider a different perspective. Or maybe I should stop perpetuating these myths about women and money or whatever.” This is what I mean, there’s so many double-edgedness, double standards and norms, because money is one of those hypercomplex conversations. I feel it’s like every Skittle in the damn rainbow really. There’s just so many ways in which you’re told to spend your money and earn your money and function.

You’re a bad human if you have it and you’re a shitty human if you don’t have it, and you matter if you do have it, but then you really don’t matter if you don’t. In fact, you can die if you’re poor, we don’t care, and homelessness is a whole other issue. Then when we look at this, and we look at the most powerful people in the world having money and they’re just absolutely awful. It’s either like anti-capitalist to a fault or uber-capitalist pathological consumption to a fault. Finding yourself in the middle of that is actually one of the most challenging things that I think any woman will ever find herself in.

Coraline: I want the audience to really have a think about money and a time in their life where they thought they really needed money and they thought it was never going to work out because let’s say, the car broke down, and it was going to cost $5,000 to fix and where the fuck was I going to find $5,000? It’s two years later, and are you still thinking about that $5,000 with the car, because you found the $5,000. I share that story because it’s exactly what– We started this conversation with that it’s a choice. Wealth is a choice, and it’s not for everyone.

When people say to me, “I can’t have as much money as you,” I share that story. Whenever you want the money and when you choose that you need the money, it always turns up. When you think you can’t pay the rent, it turns up. If you can find the solution to these small lifestyle problems that happen to all of us, why not the rest, but that’s up to you, and you don’t need it. I’m not saying you have to have what I want, but please don’t judge people who do, because you have the choice, like you, like Angel, like everyone else.

Angel: Absolutely. You know what? If you are in a place of privilege where you have the ability, you have the internet, you have a brain and you have free will, use it. Definitely, I’m going to encourage everyone listening to Napoleon Hill, huge for me. Anything Napoleon Hill, really moving into a state of mind where even Denise Duffield-Thomas, which is some beginner steps for those of you who are feeling challenged by a money mindset, she has a ton of free content. Napoleon Hill is long gone. One of his books, Outwitting the Devil was banned literally up to only recently, like the last decade or so, that just changed my life.

It’s interesting because when we look at manifesting in itself, and when we look at the ways now where I am so certain that the money will show up, that I don’t even stress anymore about money when money was one of the number one things. That I could be having the best day in the world and if I looked at my bank account or I had a bill come in, it would deter me. Napoleon Hill is some of that stuff where I realized, “Wait a second, if I just not stress about anything, the money will appear.” It’s happened that many times. I definitely encourage anyone to go read up on that. There’s three, I think, what is it, Think and Grow Rich, Outwitting the devil, what are some other really great books books that they can read?

Coraline: Someone I love to listen to, and not a book, but Esther Hicks, has a lot of things around money, really calls you out on little things, so that’s really, really cool. I might have to send them to you and put them in the show notes because the things I’m coming up with is like, at the moment, I’m really into the economics and stuff like that.

Angel: In the spirit of soul and strategy, we’ll include a mix of different things [crosstalk] for people to dig into. I just want to, I guess, end today’s call on– we’ll lead everybody to where you are, how they can work with you and how they can get in touch, et cetera, but I want to end today’s call on a kick, a high. Leaving you with a sense of belief, that wealth is your birthright and that wealth is not something that is reserved exclusively for one class, or one race, one type of person, one type of family, one type of upbringing, or one type of culture.

Really move you into a place that if you can find yourself steeped in the kind of conviction and courage that incessantly and adamantly believes that wealth is your birthright, you can absolutely implement everything we’ve spoken about today. If you can– again, I’ll bring it back to birth, if you can grow babies and birth babies, and raise children, which has to be the most intensely exhaustive, take you to the brink of your limits, place, then I know for a fact that you have the capacity to grow wealth for yourself.

I want you to leave this call and really believe in your bones that if you are a woman, a person identifying as, or otherwise, who really does have a dream, who can feel the potential coming off of them, who really feels like their vision is worth sharing with the world, but who is perhaps not going there because the money part is scaring the crap out of them, reach out to Coraline. We are both in the business of helping visionary type women, create impact, and then build wealth based on that impact. We’re not interested in having people create these superfluous careers that mean nothing, just to build a portfolio and sound cool.

That does not bring the soul, the kind of food and fulfillment it needs. We’re talking about getting amazing people, with their bank accounts, full pockets– which is only going to move that mission forward, which is something that Peta Kelly actually taught me a lot about as well, which is another great book, Earth Is Hiring. I just want you to feel inspired and less grossed out by money. I want you to feel more turned on by the financial potential of what could be. I want you to start having conversations with your friends, your family, your coworkers, and perhaps just people around you who you feel safe enough to have these conversations with.

Because as a collective, we need to be creating spaces for ourselves to have conversations about money, because what I say makes you feel safe enough to grow, and what you say makes me feel safe enough to crash and then come back together. The more we can have these conversations, the more we can challenge the system. The less we have the conversations, the more the system stays in control. It’s also about collectively coming together and being ninjas, and growing wealth in a way that’s going to change the way money looks like for our children.

Coraline: If it’s okay, I’d like to share something, a money game I call it, with your listeners. I play this game every year with myself. I invite you to do the same. Essentially, you can choose that you might do it for 30 days. Let’s pick 30 days. Every day for 30 days, you’re going to give yourself a brand new check. You’re going to start at $1,000 and you’re going to go up $1,000 increments, up it till $10,000.

Angel: On a cheque?

Coraline: On a cheque, yes. Every day, I want you to spend the money. You have to spend all the money. Then on day 11, you go up 10 grand increments. Day 11 is 20 grand, 30 grand, 40 grand, 50 grand, until you get to $100,000. Then from $100,000, you go up in $100,000 increments. I would like you to play that game. One year I did it for seven months because I wanted to see– it’s a great game to see where, “Oh, I’m up to 100 grand. I’m really not comfortable with that. I’m just going to shut my book and I’m just going to let it go.”

It really challenges you to see where your comfort levels are with money. Now you have to spend it all. You can’t just go, “I’ll just save a little bit.” You can invest it but where are you going to invest it?

Angel: You can start at $5, right? You don’t need to start with 1,000?

Coraline: No.

Angel: There are many people who do this variation, literally with a dollar, and they get to 100 and they freak out. This is people with $10 million in their account who freak out at $100. Really let it just take you there. [crosstalk].

Coraline: Exactly. Thank you for–

Angel: No, that’s fine. Just want to make sure people know that you don’t need $1,000 per day to spend.

Coraline: Yes, that’s just the increments that I use, but you can use whatever increments you do. Start with 30. It’s a really great way to challenge yourself, your mind, and to see– I speak to so many people, “Currently, I’ve been trying to save $10,000 for 10 years and I can’t get it.” [crosstalk]

Angel: Do you know why, because you can’t fricking spend 10,000. That’s why.

Coraline: That’s right.

Angel: There’s a direct correlation, energetically between what you make is going to be what your ability to spend, and so you actually cap yourself. What Coraline’s trying to say is that if you decide that you will not spend more than $500 and then you’re surprised when your savings account doesn’t move past $500, it’s directly correlated. All of a sudden, you start spending money and the money starts coming in because energetically and consciously you’re making decisions to circulate that amount of money. There’s a sense of urgency, there’s a sense of investment. It’s completely different.

I’ve been dreaming about this Louis Vuitton bag since I’m 16 years old. I had it on my dream board. I used to imagine myself in my brain having this fucking bag and I bought it for myself. I bought it custom. It was almost $4,000. I’ve never ever bought myself anything that expensive. I spent it and I remember, at that moment in time, I was like, “Angel, you’re not allowed to have buyer’s remorse. You’re not allowed to panic. You just have to enjoy this and literally feel the thing.” Granted, I’d never ever, ever bought something that was this expensive.

Now I’ve definitely bought a heap of shit because I love to shop but that was the top thing. Then I was like, “No, I’m good.” I was like, “That’s it. All right. Amazing. Cool.” I didn’t leave with anything because it was custom. It takes a while to get in. I had that thing come into my brain like, “Oh.” Then the other side of my brain which was my heart conscious was like, “Good for you. You just up leveled,” which I thought was really interesting. Almost 24 hours later, I literally had a deposit come through my account for the same damn amount of the bag. Then I bought a tanning bed, which I was like, “All right. I’m hearing you, universe.”

I bought a tanning bed. It was $5,000. $5,000 and I’d never spent that much money before. I bought the $5,000 and then I was like, “I’m going to level you up universe.” I went to go buy another Louis Vuitton bag, which was $1,200. May God strike me down if I’m lying, ask my nanny, literally the next day $6,200 comes in my account. It was payments that Stripe forgot to give me, covering the exact same amount of it. You can think this is whoo-whoo all you want. I have a million stories to tell you like this, but energetically, the second you start pushing yourself to a place, is directly correlated to, “You know what, now I can tell someone, ‘Yes, you absolutely need to pay $10,000 to work with me.’”

Coraline: Sorry to interrupt. I just want to say it’s not about being frivolous with your money. That’s not what Angel’s saying, right?

Angel: No.

Coraline: We need to call that out for some people.

Angel: This is, people are stuck in this frugal and frivolous place where it’s not– personally, Scrooge is the ugliest character of all time for me though. I’m the most generous person. I would rather be that person, but moving into a place where I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is really proving me wrong,” which is the most sexiest thing ever for me. I’m sure it’s happened to you a million times as well.

Coraline: On the flip side of that, it’s about, “I’ll do a business deal,” or, “I’ll do work with this specific client,” and the outcome of how that looks like– I still got the money but I got it in a different way than I thought that the deal will end, so always stay open.

Angel: Always.

Coraline: Always stay open.

Angel: That’s the rule of manifesting is taking account. I want a million dollars and I’m waiting for this million dollar to fall out of the sky and then I take account and turns out that I’ve got a million dollars from 14 different places that I had no idea or was even keeping track of. It’s that whole, again, blending the mysticism with the making money, and then making moves that backs it. Like, “All right, cool. Let me do that.” My panties are wet, like I’ve got a– [crosstalk]

Coraline: I’m just going to say I feel like I’m on ecstasy. I’m going to be coming down soon.

Angel: It is my favorite thing to have conversations and be lit up by it and be like, “Yes, yes, yes.” This only just further reiterates what I’m– It turns me on so much.

Coraline: Thank you.

Angel: Before we end, can you tell people where to find you on Facebook, how to get in touch with you, et cetera?

Coraline: Yes, of course. Coraline Dufroux. That will be all in the show notes, Coraline Dufroux on Facebook, and also on Instagram. You can also join Money Magic. It’s a group on Facebook. It’s public, but it’s private. You just got to apply for it, answer a couple of questions. We chat like this. I do three, four videos a week. You can send in a question and I’ll talk about it for an hour. Again, I don’t give advice, I just give ideas. My aim is to just build a community of people who feel comfortable.

I’m very strict about who I allow into the group because I want it to be a safe space, and it’s confidential information that people are sharing, so it’s very important. Yes, that’s where you can find me. I hope to see you there.

Angel: Thank you so much for all of the work that you’ve done, for the ways that you challenge women, their relationships with money and their future with money. Personally, I want to make sure that I do everything so that serendipity, synchronicity, and wealth become the ultimate ménage à trois in my bed. I’m super excited to work with you and I’m super excited for people to find you so they can leave just as inspired.

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